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Now, my Lords, I cannot let pass, but in these glasses which I spake of, besides the facts themselves and the danger, to shew you two things; the one the ways of God Almighty, which turneth the sword of Rome upon the kings that are the vassals of Rome, and over them gives it power; but protecteth those kings which have not accepted the yoke of his tyranny from the effects of his malice: the other, that (as I said at first) this is a common cause of princes; it involveth kings of both religions; and therefore his Majesty did most worthily and prudently to ring out the alarum-bell, to awake all other princes to think of it seriously and in time. But this is a miserable case the while, that these Roman soldiers do either thrust the spear into the sides of God's anointed, or at least they crown them with thorus, that is, pricking and piercing cares and fears, that they can never be quiet or secure of their lives or states. And as this peril is common to princes of both religions, so princes of both religions have been likewise equally sensible of every injury that touched their temporal. Thuanus reports in his story, that when the realm of France was interdicted by the violent proceedings of Pope Julius the second, the King, otherwise noted for a moderate prince, caused coins of gold to be stamped with his own image, and this superscription, Perdam nomen Babylonis è terra; of which Thuanus saith himself had seen divers pieces; so as this catholic king was so much incensed at that time, in respect of the Pope's usurpation, as he did apply Babylon to Rome. Charles the fifth emperor, who was accounted one of the Pope's best sons, yet proceeded in matter of temporal towards Pope Clement with strange rigour, never regarding the pontificality, but kept him prisoner thirteen months in a pestilent prison, was hardly dissuaded by his council from having sent him captive into Spain, made sport with the threats of Frosberg the German, who wore a silk rope under his cassock, which he would shew in all companies, telling them that he carried it to strangle the Pope with his own hands. As for Philip the fair, 'tis the ordinary example, how he brought Pope Boniface the eighth to an ignominious end, dying mad and enraged, and how he styled his rescript to the Pope's bull, whereby he challenged his temporal, Sciat fatuitas vestra, not your beatitude, but your stultitude; a style worthy to be continued in the like cases; for certainly that claim is mere folly and fury. As for native examples here, it is too long a

field to enter into them. Never kings of any nation kept the partition-wall between temporal and spiritual better in times of greatest superstition. I report me to King Edward I. that set up so many crosses, and yet crossed that part of the Pope's jurisdiction, no man more strongly. But these things have passed better pens and speeches: here I end them.

But now to come to the particular charge of this man, I must inform your Lordships the occasion and nature of this offence: There hath been published lately to the world a work of Zuarez1 a Portuguese, a professor in the university of Coimbra, a confident and daring writer, such a one as Tully describes in derision, nihil tam verens, quam ne dubitare aliqua de re videretur: one that fears nothing but this, lest he should seem to doubt of any thing. A fellow that thinks with his magistrality and goose quill to give laws and manages to crowns and scepters. In this man's writing this doctrine of deposing or murthering kings seems to come to a higher elevation than heretofore; and it is more arted and positived than in others. For in the passages which your Lordships shall hear read anon, I find three assertions which run not in the vulgar track, but are such as wherewith men's ears (as I suppose) are not much acquainted; whereof the first is, That the Pope hath a superiority over kings, as subjects, to depose them, not only for spiritual crimes, as heresy and schism, but for faults of a temporal nature, forasmuch as a tyrannical government tendeth ever to the destruction of souls. So by this position kings of either religion are alike comprehended, and none exempted. The second, that after a sentence given by the Pope, this writer hath defined of a series, or succession, or substitution of hangmen or bourreaux,2 to be sure, lest an executioner should fail; for he saith, that when a king is sentenced by the Pope to deprivation or death, the executioner who is in first place is he to whom the Pope shall commit the authority, which may be a foreign prince, it may be a particular subject, it may be general to the first undertaker. But if there be no direction or assignation in the sentence special nor general, then de jure it appertains to the next successor; (a natural and pious opinion; for commonly they are sons, or

1 In the margin opposite this sentence the following note has been crossed out: "Que: Of the Christen name of Zuarez, and of the title of the booke." 2 Spelt 'burreos' in the MS.

brothers, or near of kin, all's one, so as the successor be apparent, and also that he be a catholic). But if it be doubtful, or that he be no catholic, then it devolves to the commonalty of the kingdom; so as he will be sure to have it done by one minister or other. The third is, he distinguisheth of two kinds of tyrants, a tyrant in title, and a tyrant in regiment. The tyrant in regiment cannot be resisted or killed without a sentence precedent by the Pope; but a tyrant in title may be killed by any private man whatsoever. By which doctrine he hath put the judgment of kings' titles (which I will undertake are never so clear but that some vain quarrel or exception may be made unto them) upon the fancy of every private man; and also couples the judgment and execution together, that he may judge him by a blow, without any other sentence. Your Lordships see what monstrous opinions these are, and how both these beasts, the beast with seven heads, and the beast with many heads, Pope and people, are at once let in, and set upon the sacred persons of kings.

Now to go on with the narrative; There was an extract made of certain sentences and portions of this book, being of this nature that I have set forth, by a great prelate and counsellor upon a just occasion; and there being some hollowness and hesitation in these matters (wherein it is a thing impious to doubt) discovered and perceived in Talbot, he was asked his opinion concerning these opinions, in the presence of the best: and afterwards they were delivered to him, that upon advice and sedato animo he might declare himself; whereupon under his hand he subscribes thus ;

May it please your honourable good lordships: Concerning these doctrines of Zuarez, I do perceive by what I have read in his book that the same doth concern matter of faith, the controversy growing upon exposition of Scriptures and councils, wherein (being ignorant and not studied) I cannot take upon me to judge. But I do submit mine opinion therein to the judgment of the catholic Roman church, as in all other points concerning faith I do. And for matter concerning my loyalty, I do acknowledge my sovereign Liege Lord King James to be lawful and undoubted king of all the kingdoms of England, Scotland, and Ireland, and I will bear true faith and allegiance to his Highness during my life.

WILLIAM TALBOT.

My Lords, upon these words I conceive Talbot hath committed a great offence, and such a one, as if he had entered into a voluntary and malicious publication of the like writing, it would have been too great an offence for the capacity of this court. But because it grew by a question asked by a council of estate, and so rather seemeth in a favourable construction to proceed from a kind of submission to answer than from any malicious or insolent will, it was fit according to the clemency of these times to proceed in this manner before your Lordships: and yet let the hearers take these things right; for certainly, if a man be required by the Council to deliver his opinion whether King James be king or no? and he deliver his opinion that he is not, this is high treason: but I do not say that these words amount to that; and therefore let me open them truly to your Lordships, and therein open also the understanding of the offender himself, how far they reach. My lords, a man's allegiance must be independent and certain, and not dependent and conditional. Elizabeth Barton, that was called the holy maid of Kent, affirmed that if King Henry VIII. did not take Catharine of Spain again to his wife within a twelvemonth, he should be no king: and this was treason. For though this act be contingent and future, yet the preparing of the treason is present. And in like manner, if a man should voluntarily publish or maintain that whensoever a bull of deprivation shall come forth against the King, that from thenceforth he is no longer king, this is of like nature. But with this I do not charge you neither; but this is the true latitude of your words, That if the doctrine touching the killing of kings be matter of faith, then you submit yourself to the judgment of the catholic Roman church: so as now (to do you right) your allegiance doth not depend simply upon a sentence of the Pope of deprivation against the King; but upon another point also,if these doctrines be already, or shall be declared to be, matter of faith. But, my Lords, there is little won in this. There may be some difference to the guilt of the party, but there is little to the danger of the King. For the same Pope of Rome may with the same breath declare both. So as still upon the matter the King is made but tenant at will of his life and kingdoms, and the allegiance of his subjects is pinned upon the Pope's acts. And certainly, 'tis time to stop the current of this opinion of acknowledgment of the Pope's power in temporalibus, or else it will

sap and supplant the King's seat. And let it not be mistaken that Mr. Talbot's offence should be no more than refusing the oath of allegiance. For it is one thing to be silent, and another thing to affirm. As for the point of matter of faith, or not of faith, to tell your Lordships plain, it would astonish a man to see the gulf of this implied belief. Is nothing exempted from it? If a man should ask Mr. Talbot whether he do condemn murther, or adultery, or rape, or the doctrine of Mahomet, or of Arius, instead of Zuarius; must the answer be with this exception, that if the question concern matter of faith (as no question it doth, for the moral law is matter of faith), that therein he will submit himself to what the Church shall determine? And no doubt the murther of princes is more than simple murther. But to conclude (Talbot) I will do you this right, and I will not be reserved in this, but to declare that that is true, that you came afterwards to a better mind; wherein if you had been constant, the King out of his great goodness was resolved not to have proceeded with you in course of justice: but then again you started aside like a broken bow, so that by your variety and vacillation you lost the acceptable time of the first grace, which was not to have convented you. Nay, I'll go further with you: your last submission I conceive to be satisfactory and complete; but then 't was too late; the King's honour was upon it; it was published and day appointed for hearing; yet what preparation that may be to the second grace of pardon, that I know not: but I know my Lords out of their accustomed favour will admit you not only to your defence concerning that that hath been charged, but to extenuate your fault by any submission that now God shall put into your mind to make.

It is plain enough from the tenour of the concluding remarks that the object of this proceeding was to enforce submission upon the point in dispute, but not to inflict any further punishment: and though the sentence of the Court was a fine of 10,0007., it does not appear that Talbot was required to pay it; and when the rest of his countrymen returned to Ireland he was allowed to go with them.1

4.

What particular communications passed between the King and the " Undertakers," I have not (as I said) been able to discover. 1 Desid. Cur. Hibern. vol. i. p. 321.

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