that a military spirit would be infused into them which would the more readily induce them to enter into the line. His right hon. friend had said that there were many old and infirm officers on the half-pay list unfit for service, but it should be recollected that there were twenty battalions disbanded last year, whose services for a limited time, the officers, of which there was every reason to believe were effective, and, besides, it was not mandatory in his Majesty to appoint those only: besides, if new regiments were to be raised according to the proposition of his right hon. friend, they must be officered in the same way. He conceived that no measure was better calculated to produce the desired effect than he present, and that the experiment of raising troops of the line proposed by his right. hon. friend, would place the country in great danger. With respect to the recruiting service being injured, it was a fact, that during the competition between the militia and the line, more recruits were obtained for the latter than before. at page 966 of this volume]. before you can chastise his guilty head for the insults he has committed on you. He has called us a nation of shopkeepers. Are we to lay like base metal, nailed to the counter, till he makes his appearance ! Are we to wait for him! The learned gent. praised the minister highly for his proposals of finance, but he could not equally applaud him for his military efforts. As for the burthens on the country, he thought virtue could surely bear to be taxed as much for her own support as vice. There was, however, a radical defect in this new system of defence, from its confined operation. He did not think any thing within reason would serve as a bounty for the regulars, in consequence of this army of reserve. On the subject of the supplementary militia, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Burke), now departed from this mortal wo.ld, at the time of its proposal, expressed himself, as he always did, in terms too strong to be easily forgotten. In his last illness, when he could not raise his hand to write, he dictated the letter he should now read to the House on that subject. [The learned Dr. LAURENCE rose to expose the unfair-doctor then read the letter which will be found ness of the arguments with which his right hon. friend's (Mr. Windham) speech had been combated. There was nothing, in fact, preposterous in his supposition respecting the consequences of the possessions of the capital or the dock-yards by the enemy. It was fitting to urge every topic, drawn from every possible view of danger, arising from a contest with such an enemy as we have to contend with, as an incitement to ministers to watch carefully, and be ready to repel him, whenever and wherever we meet him. In case of invasion every hill ought to be a fortress, every ditch an entrenchment, and every peasant a sharp shooter. His right hon. friend bad been accused of despairing. But what was the fact? He had said, that London taken, was not conquering the country! Was that the language of despair. or of imprudence? He had recommended making every man a warrior for his country, and exemplified its use by the Vendean war. Was that incorrect? No! By that war, he had it on good authority, more republicans fell, than by the arms of all the allics The learned gent. then discussed, at considerable length, the nature of the different kinds of force, best suited to the circumstances of this country, in which he quoted the sentiments of Sir Walter Raleigh, and others. He had rather fight the enemy at first than wait for him too long. But this plan was sadly defec. tive. It provided no means for the chastisement of the insolence of the foe, should he dare to invade us, and be successful enough to set his hostile foot on our shores. After driving him back with disgrace from our land, what means did this bill provide for carrying the war back upon himself, and for punishing his insolence and ambition? Why, then, you must new model your whole system, and wait the effect of new bills, and new plans of strengthening your disposable force How long must it be after beating him from the coast of Essex or Kent, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the melancholy presages contained in the letter just read, which came from the pen of a gent. whom none respected more than himself, had not been fulfided by subsequent circumstances. The very measure alluded to of calling out the supplementary militia, had tended to produce the greatest advantages, from thence we had derived those exertions in Egypt by which the country had been so materially benefited. With respect to the present measure, the point of issue was this, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would forego the immediate advantage of obtaining 50,000 men for the defence of the country, from amongst whom men would be permitted to enter into the line, for the sake of the chance of procuring men to recruit the line without the adoption of this measure. Another right hon. gent. (Mr.Elliot) would even forego the advantage of the additional 60,000 militia besides the present measure. for the sake of the regular army. He thought it was scarcely necessary to reason the question, experience had shewn that when the militia was kept up, they had the advantage of the largest army, disposable for foreign service, ever before known, and that the militia system did not interfere with the recruiting service for the regular army; but on the countrary, he felt that they could not do such a violence to the public feeling as to enact a conscription for the troops of the line, as to force persons to enlist in regiments which might be sent to any part of the world; such a measure would be contrary to the spirit of the constitution, and could tend to produce those discontents, which it was said by some, would arise from the present measure. Ministers had been charged with a criminal remissness, but he contended, that the facts proved that they had done all they could for the public service. He was convinced that there was * 3 H 2 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.-(JUNE 27.) no chance of permanent or secure peace until they | 1 [18-48 e would be, that The criterion he should propose those persons above 45, who paid 301. and upwards bound to provide a substitute.-The outline of the to the assessed taxes, should, if balloted for, be plan of exemptions was nearly the same as in the troduced, as the day beyond which some of the exSupplementary Militia. He should propose to take emptions were not to extend the 22d of June, the day on which the bill was inclerks, teachers of licensed congregations, volunteers, &c. yeomanry and volunteer corps. He proposed to such as articled strike out the proviso which related to them, and to Another class of exemptions was the introduce a clause stating that the exemption should extend to all volunteer corps whose services had been accepted previous to the 22d June, and whose fervices were co-extensive with the military district in which they were situated. In cases of large cities and towns, such as London, Bristol, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Glasgow, York, Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham, he should propose to exempt the volunteers of those places, provided they consented to do garrison duty. It would, for many purposes, be necessary to have troops in those places, and if the volunteers would offer their services for that service, he thought they were entitled to exemption. He should also propose, that they should be bound to attend muster and exercise, a certain number of days in the year. By the last act, which was made with a view to a peace establishment, the number was fixed at five days in the year, but that would not pose that they attend at least two days in the month. be enough in time of war, he should therefore prowho had more than three children,-Upon this subject it might not be improper to refer to the regula -it was proposed that no substitute should be taken tions respecting the Supplementary Militia. In that act there was no reference whatever to the number of children of the substitute. He felt it his duty to adopt the same principle in this measure, and also that the families of the substitutes should be provided for by the parishes, as in the case of the militia; receiver general, out of the public money.-The next and that the parishes should be re-imbursed by the clause which related to the fine which was to be paid by those who did not serve or provide a substitute, he should leave out, for the purpose of introducing one HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, June 27-(Min. 975.) [ARMY OF RESERVE.]-THE SECRETARY AT WAR wished that the bill might be re-committed, in order to divide it into two: the one as it regarded England and Ireland; the other as it regarded Scotland. This division would be commodious, and would facilitate the execution of the measure-He next requested the committee would permit him to go through the bill, and point out the amendments which it was thought advisable to make. If he should not enter into a minute explanation of all, it was because they were not of so much importance as to call for such an explanation. He should now begin with the clause which prescribed the quotas to be furnished by the different counties.-The quotas for Scotland being stated it would be necessary to leave out that clause. The number which each county was to furnish varied from the regulations contained in the militia act of last session upon that subject; because government was now in possession of the latest returns of the numbers of men liable to serve. By these returns it appeared that the number of men liable to serve in the militia for Great Britain, amounted to 900,000 men; of that number about 750,000 were liable to serve for England and Wales. The quota of the counties had been assigned in consequence of these returns, which furnished the most correct means of apportioning the number of men. They had also received some information from the returns under the Population Act. Upon the fullest examination which it had been possible to give to this subject, it appeared that 80 or 84 men out of every 10,000, of the general population, would furnish the 40,000 men to be raised by Great Britain. This was taken at a medium, but in no case was there taken above 16 more than the 84, nor in any case more than 16 less than the 84. fore, as England and Wales was concerned, he As far, therehoped the quota to be furnished by each county was correctly apportioned; he knew of no means that could be had recourse to, that were so likely to produce an equal apportionment. With regard to Scot-founded upon a suggestion of his right honorable land, the quota had been regulated upon precisely the same principle. He understood, however, that some objections might be made on the part of Scotland, to this part of the plan. It might therefore, be better to ressort to the numbers which Scotland was to furnish under the Militia Act. When the bill respecting Scotland came into the committee, it would be time enough to consider that part of the subject. At all events, the whole number to be furnished by Scotland was 6000 men.-The bill, as originally framed, proceeded upon the principle of the Militia Bill, and extended only to persons of from 18 to 45. The basis of the militia system being personal service, that regulation might be proper; but on this occasion it would be worth while to consider whether the burthen might not be in some degree alleviated by extending that provision. It would be necessary then to look to persons above the age of 45, who were possessed of competent property. It would therefore be proposed that persons between 16 and 45, if of a proper height, &c. should be liable to serve personally or by substitute, and that persons above 45, and being possessed of sufficient property, should, if drawn, be obliged to find a substitute. friend (Mr. Pitt). By the militia laws every person amounted to two-thirds of the number to be raised, a power was given to suspend the ballot; this plan had been tried upon a former occasion, and with success, and he hoped it might now be adopted with advantage. The next clause was that which allowed, that half the sum paid to volunteers should be given to such persons as chose to serve for themselves. This was the principle of the militia act, but he would propose, that the person who chose to serve for himself should not only have half the sum allowed to volunteers, but that he should also receive the sum of two guineas, instead of one guinea, which he would be entitled to when he joined his corps. He now came to those provisions of the act by which the King was empowered to model this army, and to appoint the officers. No officer was to command any of these battalions who was not a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel; he meant effective colonels, who go and take the command of their regiment, and not gencrals. As to the field and subaltern officers, they were to be taken from the half pay, and from those officers who might have quitted the army for family reasons, and for other considerations. It was intended to propose a clause to enable the colonel to discharge, from time to time, such of the men as might be inclined to volunteer into the line, under such regulations as the King might think proper. The regiments were to be formed as much as possible from the same counties. Where the number of men furnished by a county was too small, those of two neighbouring counties were to be joined together. An honorable gentleman had upon a former occasion expressed his apprehension that they would not be able to procure non-commissioned officers: this certainly might be urged upon the raising of any new raised corps. If these men were raised for the regulars, they could not all be absorbed into the line, and then there would be the same want of non-com the number of men to be raised by the counties, should be 32,000, and by the city of London, the Tower Hamlets, and the Cinque Ports, 2000 more. The city of London and the Tower Hamlets, they had pretty good means of ascertaining the numbers, and he hoped that 400 men would not be thought to many for the Cinque Ports.-He afterwards moved, that the number of men to be furnished by the cityof London should be 800, and by the Cinque Ports 400. After some conversation between ALDERMAN COOMBE, the LORD MAYOR of LONDON and the SeCRETARY at WAR, it was agreed that the clause respecting the city of London should be suspended. In answer to a question made by Mr. W. SMITH, concerning the reasons why the age was taken at 16, instead of 18; and why women who possessed large fortunes were not compelled to find a substitute.The SECRETARY at WAR said, he had omitted to state the reason why he took from the age of 16 ra ther than 18. It was, however, that by the old law of England, all persons from 16 to 60 were bound to stand forward in defence of the country when called upon by the Sheriff, and he saw no reason why the same principles should not be adopted in this case. As to the second proposition he knew no instance in which women had been called upon to provide substitutes, except in the case of the provisional cavalry, and there it was attended with such inconveniences, that he thought it was a sufficient reason for not introducing it into this bill. committee approved of it, he should propose to include all persons between 16 and 60, but that those between 45 and 60 should not be called upon to serve personnally, but should be called upon to provide a substitute. If the After some debate, the SECRETARY at WAR said, that he had intended to propose the age to be between 16 and 45, liable to personal service, or to find a submissioned officers. But this difficulty would not be stitute, and then from the age of 45 to 50, liable in so great as was apprehended. At the beginning of like manner, provided the person was assessed 301. the last war, a very large army was raised, and had a year for the assessed taxes; but now here collected been very well provided with non-commissioned offi- that the committee wished the age should be from cers. We had now very considerable resources; in 18 to 45, and then from the age of 45 to 50, in case the first place there were many serjeants who be- the assessed taxes of the persons were what he had longed to regiments raised last war for limited ser- stated them to be; but it was indifferent to him as vice; in the next place the recruiting staff of the to the ages betwen 45 and 50, provided the bill was army would furnish many very valuable non-com- carried with speed, and the number he had stated missioned officers, and many might also be procured raised. He had thought that the age between 45 from the regiments of the line in England, particu- and 50 might be taken in upon the present occasion, larly if the new raised regiments should be consi- but there might be another measure by which they dered as battalions of reserve to the regimen's of the might be called upon for service, or for substitutes, line, wearing the same facings, &c. There was one as he had already stated. As to the list, he had a point which he wished to be most distinctly under-clause in his hand to regulate the mode of making stood, which was, that no man was to be taken out of this army upon any pretence whatever unless with his own consent.-It was necessary for him to observe, that it was intended to propose regulations respecting the Cinque Ports, the City of London, and the Tower Hamlets. The Cinque Ports it was intended should raise 400 men. With regard to the City of London, with every regard to their privileges, they had been called upon on former occasions by act of parliament to provide men for the public service. He hoped on the report to be able to present a clause upon this point, and he trusted the magistrates of thatcity would lend their assistance upon the occasion. In reply to some observations made by Mr. PITT, respecting the number fixed for the Cinque Ports, the SECRETARY at WAR said, it was his intention to leave out the clause alluded to, and to introduce anosher relative to the Cinque Ports. He proposed that new lists, in cases where that would be necessary. The CHANCELOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that from the experience of the last war, we were justified in expecting that the country could furnish a much larger number than was here proposed. We might look to the list with increased confidence for producing this number by ballot, because a greater number of volunteers were then raised, who were entitled to exemption, than were now in that situation. These volunteers limited the number to be balloted in the last war. Such of them as had not been accepted would not now have that exemption, and therefore the number of those who were liable to be balloted under this bill would be proportionably increased; but, however, power might be given in particular cases to amend the list, in the event of some district not being able to furnish its number. But what he chiefly wished to impress on the consi. deration of the committee was, that from the ballot. from the age of 18 to 45, there was not a larger number called forth, or very lit: larger, under this bil, than had been baloted for the militia in the course of the last war, when the number of exemption, was greater, on account of volunteers, than at present; and besides this, there were a mich greater Lumber then in our army and assy than there are at p: set; so that, upon the whole matter, the risk of being drawn now was much less than it was at one period of the last war. After it was determined by the committee that the o'd it for balloting should be abi et by.-The StCRETARY at WAR said, he was persuaded, upon recons duration, that his proposed anentments, as to the age and as to the alteration of the list, were ngly rejected for the reasons already given. Mr. MACNAGRTEN said, he could not sit silent and hear it insinuated that if the French could gun possession of Lin, that the country was lost. What if they did possess themselves of London, they dit not by that meats obtain possession of our ima and steel, or of the hearts of his Majesty's subjects. He hoped that we should never make peace until the French had tried the experiment of invasion; at present they held it in terrorem over us; let hem try it, and if they did get to our coast, they would receive such a lesson that they would never come again. Mr. WINDHAM said, that a great clamour had been raised against him a few days since, because be I ad ventured to hint at the possibility of the French obtaining possession of London: he was happy now to hear something in confrmation of that from the moralle officer who had lately spoken (Coleze Crawford,, and from the honorable gentleman who just sut down, whose sentiments, so similar to bis own, had now met with approbation. If the thing was possible, it ought to be provided against. He was glad to see them roused to a sense of their danger, which seemed to have been wanting. This men, tantily brought forward, was not an answer to whe he had urged; he could not see that spirit in the country which was talked of; he rather considered that there was a sort of apathy, which perhaps was in a great measure to be attributed to the want of confidence in ministers. A convenation was carried on for a considerable time, which ended in exempting the clergy of the established church, and preachers who had hella' licence to preach at one place for 12 months before the and of June instant. This was adopted in conformity to precedent-On the subject of the exemptions of the volunteer corps, the StoPETARY at WAR proposed also to follow the prec, dent of the year 1799; that none should be exempted from t is levy whose services had not been received on or before the 22d ! of this month, which produced a long conversation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that it had not been deemed expedient for government to determine what volunteer service would be accept- THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the ed until the sense of Parliament shall have been ex-right honorable gentleman Mr. Windham had, afpressed upon the present levy. ter giving symptoms of that apathy which be im It was propose that the day should be altered puted to the country, appeared to be roused by the from the 22d to the 6th of this month, for that it sentiments uttered by the honorable gentleman Mr. was observable that since the apprehension of this Macnaghten), and had now discovered a similarity new levy, the volunteer corps had been greatly of sentiment; but the language of the honorable crowded; and it was generally expressed as an ex-gentleman was that of animation, whilst that of the pectation that no volunteer corps shall be exempted right honorable gentleman tended to despondency and unless some equivalent shall be given for the exemp- dismay. He gave the right honorable gentleman tion, such, for instance, as security for continuance every credit for the warmth of his heart, and he was in the service, because otherwise persons might inrol i convinced that the right honorable gentleman would themselves in a volunteer corps until after the ballot, make every sacrifice for the good of his country; but was over, and then discontinue such volunteer ser- still he could not help thinking that the language of vice. It was then agreed, that the exemption of the the right honorable gentleman tended to feed and volunteer corps should take place only with respect pamper the mind of one who was already too preto those whose services were accepted on or before suming, that of the Chief Consul of France. When the 22d of this month. the right honorable gentleman talked of the present situation of the country, he would ask, if when that right honorable gentleman formed a part of the administration, he did not then think that the measures pursued were inadequate to the danger of the country?-With respect to what had been said by the hon. officer (Col. Crawford) his right hon. friend had not said that the persons alloted were to be compelled to enter into the regiments of the line, but there was nothing to prevent them from entering into these regiments. It had been said, that the French had the means of sending out a large force-but were they therefore to take it for granted that the metropolis was in imminent danger? Was there not a chance that the armaments of the enemy would be prevented from reaching our coafts, by the exertions of our navy; and if they did reach our coaft, was it too sanguide to suppose that by means of the large force we possessed, that the attempt would be rendered abortive, and be turned to the shame and disgrace of the invaders? All the regiments destined for the coaft, would be at their respective destinations, in the course of the present week. Under the present circumstances of the country, he should hold himself criminal, if any thing was left to chance On Clause 13th.-COLONEL CRAWFORD suggested that the men balloted ought to be enroled to serve his Majesty in any regiment, his Majesty chose to appoint for that purpose. If the French landed, we must have an army of old and regular troops to oppose them, or otherwise they might gain possession of London, by which the country would be placed in a desperate situation. A great number of vessels were in a state of preparation in the ports of Holland, which were manned with as good pilots as the Trinity-House could afford, and the French had the means of transporting 100,000 men to this country. He could not conceive what difference it could make if the men balloted for wire placed in any regiment of the line, provided the service of such regiment was limited to Great Britain and Ireland, Guernsey and Jersey. THE SECRETARY AT WAR said, a rower was to be given to his Majesty to place the men raised under this act, in such regiments as his Majesty should think fit, provided such regiments should serve only in Great Britain and Ireland, Guernsey, and Jersey. The men raised under this act were not to be compelled to serve in any regiment enlisted for general service, but it was at their option to enlist for general service, if they chose. or accident: he did not attempt to under-rate the danger, but he was surely juftified in placing a confidence in those great means of defence, with which we were now provided, and which were greater than at any former period. A long conversation ensued in the course of which various amendments were suggefted and adopted, and several new clauses introduced by THE SECRETARY AT WAR. him to have made this motion, and indeed it would have been his duty to move for documents to elucidate the subject. But he had laid no parliamentary ground for the production of such documents; it was unfit that they should be laid before the House, under an allegation of misconduct, where there was not any such. If suspicion had been entertained, it was necessary that the fact should be disclosed; and he was happy to add, that if there was any thing irregular in any part of the case ftated in the memorial, it had been long since corrected by his right. hon. friend, and that at this moment there was not the shadow of ground for complaint in these particulars against the Board of Admiralty. For these reasons he thought he owed it to the hon. persons alluded to in the memorial of the hon gent. as well as to his Majsity's government at large, to move that first the order for laying this memorial and papers before the House be read, and then to move that the said be discharged. Capt. COCHRANE said, that he had a great many prize causes to be heard in the court of Admiraky, and he was dissatisfied with the manner in which they had been conducted. He complained that in all cases of prize causes the King's proctor must be employed by all the officers of the King's navy. He thought it was but juft that each officer who had a prize cause should be allowed to chuse his own proctor. He said, that in many instances the partner of Mr. Heseltine, the King's proctor was often concerned for the party that was adverse to the King's officer for whom the King's proctor was concerned. He complained that these practices were highly dangerous to his interefts, and to the general interests of the officers of his Majefty's navy concerned in prize causes. He complained of his interefts being neglected, and of the proctor's bill being enormous, &c. He proceeded to ftate all the proceedings he had the Shakspeare and other taverns, when a meeting was convened by him of a great number of officers of his Majefty's navy concerned in prize causeswhich ended in a memorial, the memorial in question: and he observed, that atter it was drawn, the officers moft unaccountably deserted him, and left him to present his memorial alone. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, June 28. (Min. p. 975-) [CAPT. COCHRANE'S MEMORIAL.The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Said that he gave notice yesterday, that it was his intention to move that the order made by the House yesterday for laying before the House a memorial presented by an hon. member of the House now in his place (the hon. capt. Cochrane), and other papers to the lords commissioners of the Admiralty, in Jan. 1799, on the subject of appeals in prize causes, &c. be discharged. In the ordinary course of practice, it was to have been expected that no motion of importance would have been made without notice, in order that the parties molt immediately concerned might prepare for its discussion; and on referring to the order book he found that no notice had been given of this motion. It was true that the hon. gent. had previously communicated the intention to him, but the House was not apprized of it. The hon. member had inferred from his silence that he had no objection to the motion, and as it was not opposed, the motion was carried; but the truth was, that he had an objection to the motion. The objection was, that no parliamentary ground was laid before the House for assenting to the production of these documents. He did not understand that any such ground was laid for the motion, and as the effect of complying with it would be to caft an imputation on the conduct of the Board of Admiralty, and on the conduct of the the executive government at that time, for all the government was in some measure included in the complaints of that memorial; and that being done without any foundation or parliamentary ground for inquiry, and three great law officers of the Crown being complained of in the memorial, namely, the King's attorney-geDr. LAURENCE allowed the motives of the neral, the King's advocate, and the King's proctor, hon. member to be pure, but maintained that the he thought it would be improper for the House subject of his complaint was founded on an entire to order to be laid before it any document of this want of knowledge of the nature of the legal nature; he said this because he was most credibly proceedings in which he had been engaged; these informed, that all this complaint against these charges were brought forward in the absence of learned and hon. officers, was wholly without foun- knowledge of the true intereft of the hon. officer dation, and the proof of that the charges were well himself; this he undertook to aver from his owa founded ought to have been adduced by the hon. immediate and personal knowledge. He defended member who made the motion. Besides the im- all the officers of doctors' commons, who had putation on the members of government, at the been alluded to, and assured the House they had time of presenting the memorial, there was another always conducted themselves in a way that did caft on those who at present composed the exe- them honour. He then went over all the charges cutive government; and it would appear by this brought forward, and said they were entirely memorial as if they had neglected to take proper without foundation, for that he knew protesfteps on that occasion to redress the grievances sionally all the circumstances of the case. He which were ftated in the memorial, a species alledged that the charges in the bill were more of censure to which none of his Majesty's ministers moderate than the same business would have could submit, because they were not conscious of been charged at 20 years ago; and as to every deserving it. If the hon. gent. had ftated that he officer being allowed to employ his own proctor, meant to inftitute an inquiry afterwards into the in prize causes, it must be observed, that such couduct of those minifters of government of whom proceeding would interfere with the prerogative of he complained, and had laid before the House the Crown-a prerogative of great value to his ground of suspicion, that they had misconducted majefty's subjects, since the management of matthemselves; then it would have been regular forters of prizes were often intimately connected with |