consideration. He highly valued the services of the regular army; but however he relied on the assistance, or upon the zeal and exertions of our other forces, he begged the right hon. Gent., the house and the country to understand that government did not mean entirely to rely on these means, and that the proposition now before the Committee was not the limit of their arrangements for the attainment of the objects of the war; for, independently of the means already referred to, he had no doubt that should circumstances render it necessary, the great body of the country would, upon an appeal from their Sovereign, stand forward in defence of their righs and independence. Upon the prompt assistance of such a voluntary force he confident y reckoned; such a force as must render the country impregnable, and as must convince the person who now directs the government of France that it would be absurd to speculate upon a successful invasion of this country. Perhaps it is happy for the interests of this empire that the occasion now offers to shew that any projects of attack upon our finances and independence, such as the French government seems to entertain, must be vain and futile. Without enquiring into the general systems alluded to by the right hon. Gent. which it was not now necessary to discuss, he begged the Committee to consider whether the plan submitted to their judgment was or was not fit to be adopted in the present posture of affairs, and calculated duly to second the other arrangements made to meet the situation of the country. If it was so thought, he begged of gentlemen to turn in their minds, and to recommend the best means which might occur to them of rendering it more effectual, and carrying it into complete execution. MR. PITT completely differed, with almost the whole of his right hon. Friend's ideas, though he concurred in the code upon which he (Mr. Windham) professed to found them, but to which, in his judgment, they did not apply. He had stated before, that as he agreed in the principle of the plan, he would not obtrude himself on the time of the Committee; for as his only desire was to render this plan effectual for its object, he would state his opinions in a future stage; but, as he was on his legs, he took occasion to say that his objections applied to some of the exemptions, and particularly to the proposal of allowing a pecuniary commutation for services, for he had very serious doubts whether it would be right in any case that a pecuniary fine should be accepted. His opinion was, that unless the individual balloted should have his substitute forthcoming, personal service should be required. He declared that he felt great satisfaction at the outline of the plan under consideration, and he was therefore disposed to give a silent vote, if his right hon. Friend had not miscon ceived him, unwilling to throw out any expression that might tend to interrupt that unanimity which, for general reasons, was so much to be wished for at this conjuncture. The SECRETARY at WAR, in reply, remarked that the right hon. Gent. (Mr. Windham) had complained, among other things, that the measuje was tardy and ill-considered. That it was ardy he could not allow, for it could not have been brought forward earlier after the declaration of war than it had been; and whether it was illconsidered remained for the House to determine. It was open to the criticism of all. the same right hon. Gent. had said that ministers had scandalously neglected their duty in regard to all VOL. III. military operations. To this charge he pleaded not guilty. Ministers had not been ina tentive to the means of calling forth and rendering efficient the force of the country. He ventured to assert that, whether with respect to the force which the war found in their hands, the military situa tion of this country would bear a comparison with our situation at the commencement of any war in which we ever were engaged. It would be found that every effort had been employed to keep up a force adequate to our security, and capable of being called forth with energy on any emergency. With many of the right hon. Gent.'s (Mr. Windham) opinions he agreed, though he looked upon some of them as ill-placed. What he had said on the subject of the militia would have come with better chance of attaining the object, had it been offered when the subject of the militia was under consideration last year, With respect to commuting the penalty for not serving personally, he contended that the object which was to raise men speedily, would not be answered. High bounties alone would not do, and had that been considered a fit and efficient mode of raising men, government would have proposed to Parliament to grant funds for that purpose, without waiting to levy them in comBut it was panies or parties on individuals. found that another system must be resorted to. It was men and not money that were wanted, and it was no objection to this measure to say, that it was not stronger than the necessity in which it was founded. He denied that the measure proposed would give us nothing but a militia. As to what had been said on the subject of young officers being allowed to raise men for rank, he denied that any such thing was now done or intended. He supposed that the right hon. Gent. had alluded to the circumstance which had taken place since the abolition of the field officers company, by which three more captains had become necessary in a regiment. He explained the nature of the change, and shewed, that allowing the first lieut. to raise 30 men, was in no respect allowing officers to raise men for rank. When these men were raised, it was at the regulated bounty, and one half of the money was paid back to the officer. If more bounty-money was given than the regulated sum, it was a contravention of the orders of his R. H. the commander in chief. The raising the men in this way was not the price of rank, but it promoted the recruiting service by inducing men to pay attention to the recruiting, which not eagerly performed when the officer had no particular object to stimulate his exertions. was [IRISH BUDGET.]-MR. CORRY, the Chancellor He said, that he of the Irish Exchequer, rose. should be under the necessity of trespassing but a short time on that attention which the Committee and the House were always disposed to pay to the affairs of Ireland, while he laid before them a statement of the ways and means of the year, for that part of the United Kingdom. He had but little to do; because he had nothing to do but to present, in the usual manner, the charges and the provisions that were necessary for them. Although every man that was good and patriotic in Ireland must approve the great efforts and the important sacrifices of which England had already set the example for the support of the war, yea 3 G the war was too young to admit of Ireland imitating that example, even to the extent of her com arative ability. He should proceed, therefore, without any general observations, to lay before the Committee the financial statements of the present year. Supply. The whole of the joint charges for England and freland, as had been stated by his right hon. Friend on a former day was 27,000,000l. Of which the proportion of Ireland, in Irish money, was The separate charges for Ireland were, interest of debt, Sinking Fund, &c. Compensation, the last that would be paid Navigations 2,040,000l. 300,000 3,602,000l. 2,876,000 Making in all for Ireland 6,478,000l. There were likewise in the hands of the Bank of Ireland Treasury Bills, similar to Exchequer Bills here, which the Bank of Ireland, he believed, would have no objection to renew. Ways and Means. the place consuming the goods must return to the merchant exporter. He had the satisfaction of thinking, there ore, that notwithstanding the exports were exceeded by the imports, it was not by so considerable a balance as at first appeared, and, as a portion of the imports was of raw materials, he trusted that the drains which had been so unfavourable to Ireland would gradually be diminished. Laft year he had ventured to express a hope that the linen trade would this year increase, which from the circumftances of the times, the prevalence of scarcity, &c. had in the preceding year been confined. He was happy to think that this was in some measure the case, and that most of the old ftock in Ireland had been carried off, and there was the prospect of an increasing demand. Under the head of provisions and corn there had been a considerable increase, independent of the extraordinary demand for provisions which the war would necessarily occasion. On the head of provisions there was an increase in the value of the exports of 250,000l. and on corn 550,000l. beyond the former year. Although he regretted the war, he was happy to think that in some respects it would be attended with superior advantages to Ireland, which would be some compensation for the increased burdens it would occasion. In regard to provisions, and in all probability corn also, we might next year confidently expect an increase. There were the beft hopes that the linen manufacture would likewise be increased in an unusual proportion. To make good this sum of 6,478,000l. of charges, The importation of flax had never been so great, there were Balances in the Exchequer, similar to the growing produce of the Revenue for the current year Which, with the proportion for Ire 350,000l. 3,000,000 200,000 had fallen off, as well as that on foreign spirits. The importation of sugar had likewise been excessive, and it was not probable that the duty would this year be so great, There were likewise some arrears of assessed taxes collected in the former year; so that upon the whole he did not think himself entitled to eftimate the revenue for this year at more than 3,000,000l. and likewise the cultivation of this article, so important to the ftaple manufacture of Ireland, the principal source of its wealth, was never exceeded in any former period.-He next made some remarks upon the revenue of Ireland. He should not at present enter into a detailed statement on this subject, particularly as he should think it uncandid to do so in the absence of a right hon. land of the late loan, amounted to 5,916,000l. Gent. with whom he had, on former occasions, Leaving a deficit of upwards of 500,000l. To sup- some difference of opinion. Last year the revenue ply this deficit, he proposed to raise a loan in had turned out nearly what he had estimated, Ireland, to the extent of a sum not exceeding being about 3,350,000l. but for the present year 1,000,ocol. This would leave a surplus in the he should not take it at more than 3,000,000l. Exchequer of Ireland, which, when the circum-The reasons for this were that the duty on tobacco ftances of the present crisis, and the possibility of sudden emergencies were considered, would not appear improvident or unnecessary. It remained for him to point out the new taxes by which he proposed to pay the interest of the loan. Before he proceeded to do so, he begged leave to say a few words on the subject of the trade of Ireland. Last year he had informed the Committee that the balance of trade for two years had not been so favourable for Ireland, as could have been wished. That balance, he was happy to find, was now more favourable than it had been, though he still confidently looked to great and important improvements. That the balance of trade was becoming more advantageous to Ireland, was proved by the amount of the exports and imports. He took occasion to remark, that this balance way more favourable than it appeared from the official value. The mode of account ftill continued in Ireland in this department. He shewed that the official value did not in reality shew the true value of the goods exported, which, where a duty was to be paid were rated at their bare value, without including the freight, profit, &c. of which New Taxes. He now came to the new taxes, in the statement of which he should be very brief, for there was nothing new in the principle, or extravagant in the rates of the taxes he meant to propose.He proposed, in the first place, an increase upon the head of cuftoms, and in consequence of the principles of the intercourse of England and Ireland, in consequence of the Union, this tax would fall entirely on foreign commodities. He proposed the amount to be 10 per cent. The produce of this he took at Carried forward 140,000l. 140,000 Brought forward 140,000!. The next was a duty of export on certain articles. Here he took occasion to remark that it was not the principle of the Union that the same articles in both countries should be subject to the same tax. The rates of revenue were to be proportioned, but the assets of taxation, and the quality of the tax might be separate and distinct. Where, however, it was equally consonant to the interest of both countries that the same object should be taxed, it was desirable to follow that progress to assimilate them. The exports of Ireland, however, he was sorry to say, was not so extensive as to promise a very large sun. This he took at The next was an additional duty on home made spirits, and he was sure that as far as was compatible wish the discouragement of the private stills, the House would feel that to discourage the use of spirituous liquors was to promote the industry and the good morals of the people. 9d. per gallon on home spirits, and a countervailing duty of 9d. per gallon on foreign spirits, over and above the 10 per cent. would give Here he noticed that from the duty of our imports, tobacco would be exempted, because it was found that in time of peace, it could not bear the present rate The last object was malt. Malt, he said, was used in the distillery in proportion of one-half, and therefore the distillery would contribute on this part. He hoped, as far as it affected the brewery, the tax would not be attended with any inconvenience, because he considered the encouragement of the brewery in opposition to the distillery, was attended with the most beneficial effects. He proposed to make the tax Is. the barrel of malt, the brewery in Ireland being subject to no other duty of excise. This he calculated at 17,0001. 30,000 40,000 served, that the situation of the empire called upon us to make ample provision for future exertion. If peace took place, the produce of the present taxes would enable Parliament to reduce the raten several objects which, during peace, could ntb made to bear the rate they were now loaded with. If the war continued, the surplus would go in aid of the vigorous exertions which we should be called upon to make. If the people of Ireland looked at the brilliant and solid measures of finance, the sinking fund, the surplus of the assessed taxes, the income tax, of which the illustrious statesman who till lately presided over that department had given the example, and those energetic measures which his right honourable friend had lately brought forward for the support of the war, they would feel themselves impelled to follow the same course, and inclined to submit to larger temporary burdens, in order to secure their permanent interest and prosperity. It might be some time before the people of Ireland, fully aware of the dangers that impended, made up their minds for such sacrifices, but he hoped the time was not distant when, with the approbation and aid of all the intelligent classes of that country, he should be enabled, if he continued to stand in his present official situation, to propose a tax upon property as a war resource, He concluded with moving the resolutions for the new taxes. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, June 23. (Min. p. 974). [ARMY OF RESERVE BILL.]—Mr. CALCRAFT thought that before the Secretary at War brought forward this measure, which was admitted to be only a part of a larger system of defence, he ought to have stated the whole of the plan which government had in view, not only to provide a force for defensive but offensive operations; he meant that they ought to have stated the means they meant to adopt for recruiting the regular army. The necessity of filling up the regiments of the line, which had excellent and experienced officers, was generally admitted, but if 50,000 men more were to be taken out of the population of the country for defensive purposes alone, it ought to be stated how the regiments of the line were to be filled up for offensive operations. For his own part, so convinced was he of the necessity of completing the regular army, that he would concur in any measure, however strong, for that purpose, he would even have recourse for balloting for that purpose, if it could not be done by bounties. His great objection therefore to this mea sure was, that it would throw the greatest impediments in the way of recruiting for the line. It had been admitted that a sufficient nun ber of men could not be raised for the regulars by bounties; if that was the case, it would be necessary to have recourse to a ballot, and it would be better to have recourse to that in the first instance, than after 50,000 men had been taken * 3 G 2 from the population of the country, merely for the purposes of defence. Every body concurred in thiking that the war ought to be carried on with vigour, and certainly the beginning of the war was the time for vigorous offensive operations, before the enemy could have time to secure his vulnerable points. bill. Mr. SHERIDAN rose to deprecate what he considered as a premature discussion upon this He hoped there would be no more invidious comparisons or actimonious language respecting the militia. He hoped that gentlemen on all sides would occupy themselves only in augmenting the means of defence of the country; and he trusted that although the committee which had sat upon the King's Message had not asked leave to sit again, yet that some further means of defence would be adopted. He could not help differing from the honourable gentleman who spoke last, who said he would have no cbjection to balloting for men to fill up the regi ments of the line. He was sure the honourable gentleman would not, upon reflection, think of forcing men into the regulars, who would then be at the disposal of the Crown, and who might be sent abroad upon any service that was thought proper. The case was very different as far as respected the internal defence of the country. Every man was bound to stand forward for the defence of the country in case of invasion, at the command of the Crown, or even the Sheriff; but it would be too much to force men by ballot into the regulars to serve during their lives. Sir G. HEATHCOTE argued upon the necessity of adopting strong measures of defence, and not to wait till the enemy had landed. As to the rising en masse, he considered it as nonsense. If people were afraid to meet the danger, he should have but a gloomy prospect of the safety of the country. Mr. W.ELLIOT said, his principal objection to the measure was, that it would go to prevent the establishment of a large regular force. This he considered as necessary for the future safety of the country. It was the only force that was fit for offensive operations, and certainly the best for defensive; for certainly a well-timed aggression was, in many cases, the best means of defence. This was so obvious, and so generally admitted, that it was not necessary for him to press it any farther. He knew that this country could not have the same military force that another country of equal population could have. The extent of her navy took away many men from the army, besides the general prosperity of the country, its opulence, and the extent of its manufactures, were many reasons why its army could not be recruited ke those of other countries. But he thought the experiment of recruiting had never fairly been tried, because whenever they tried to get a large force for the regular army, it was always sure to be counteracted by raising a large force also for domestic service; and while ten guineas bounty was given for troops of the line, fifteen guineas at least, and sometimes more, were given for the militia service; so that the people of this country were taught to look for large bounties. There was a | great diversity of opinion about the militia. He confessed he was a friend to the principle of the militia, and was afraid there was a shade of difference of opinion upon this point between him and his right honourable friend. (Me. Windham seemed to indicate by his manner, that there was no difference of opinion between them.)-e was glad that he did not differ from his right honourable friend; but though he was a friend to the general principle of the militia, he certainly never would have consented to increase it beyond its original number of 30,000 men. It had been said, that 70,000 men might be raised in this way, without interfering with recruiting for the line; he admitted this might be true, if they were raised by ballot; but if they were raised by bounty, it certainly would interfere with it. He trusted that the government would see the impropriety of raising men for a limited time, and that they would never have recourse to the practice of drafting. He was of opinion that we should at last be obliged to have recourse to balloting to fill up the regiments of the line, for they must be filled up, and he did not see that it would be productive of more inconvenience than the present measure. The safety of the country would be risked, if they did not meet an invading enemy with the best force that could be procured. That the militia would upon that, and every occasion, be found full of cou rage and of enthusiasm, he had no doubt, but it certainly would be necessary to mix them with a very large proportion of regular troops. The case of America had, upon a former occasion, been alluded to, and it was said that the Amerithe case of America was extremely different can militia were able to face regular troops; but from that of England. In America the nature of the country was better calculated for irregular troops. That the American troops were very good ones after three or four campaigns, he ad mitted, and so would the militia of England with the some experience, be equal to any veterans upon earth, though he confessed he should be very sorry that they should be taught in that manner. Scotland had always furnished some of the best and bravest troops in our army, and certainly afforded the best means of recruiting from the existence of clanships, &c. but in order to prevent, as it were, recruiting in that coun. try, a militia was formed, and 6000 men were locked up in it. In Ireland he did not doubt but that a large force would be obtained, and by the means of balloting, though they were told, some time ago, that balloting in that country was impracticable. At the close of the last wr, the militia of Ireland was disbanded, and a fencible army was established, but it was not to leave Ireland: it was said, indeed, that they would volunteer their services to this country, nut, he had rather, for many reasons, that it should be a matter of original stipulation, this f voluntary offer. If we were to persist in th's stance of our not having any internal war for imid, irresolute system, against an enemy who above a century; these were all reasons why we vas all vigour and enterprize; he would not say could not have so large a regular army as other he would despair, because he hoped such a sen countries. The honourable gentleman had said, iment would never enter his breast, but he con- that the recruiting service had not been fairly Fessed his hopes would be very much depressed. tried, to this he could only say, that the contrary He saw no reason why this measure was not was the fact. The hon. gentleman seemed to brought forward at a much earlier period. Mi-think that it was a competition of bounties that nisters ought to have been prepared in March, kept men from the regular service: this he dewhen the King's Message was brought forward; nied. It was not money that got soldiers for they ought to have begun to prepare in Novem- the regular service : men enlisted for many ber, when they detected the military spies who reasons, some because they wanted to go abroad, were sent into the country; they cught to have some because they wished to change their situabeen preparing in December, instead of amus- tion; in short they enlisted for many reasons ing the Public with delusive accounts of the state beside that of money. In the course of the last of the finance, and holding out prospects of a re- year the number of recruits obtained for the duced peace establishment. They ought, in short, army was equal to the average number geneto have been preparing ever since the treaty of rally obtained, and in the last 5 or 6 months, the Amiens, for it appeared by his Majesty's Decla- number had been greater, although the recruiting ration, that from that time the conduct of France for the militia was also going on. The recruithad been one series of insult and violence. He ing for the army was now going on successfully concluded with expressing his disapprobation of (Mr. Elliot shook his head.) The hon. gent. the present messure, for the reason he hid al- seemed to deny that proposition, but as far as ready stated, and because it seemed as if mini- he was able to judge, his assertion was correct. ters were determined to tread back the errors The number of men now procured was upon which had prevailed in our military system. an average as great as had been procured since the treaty of peace, that is to say, from 1000 to 1200 men per month. But it was obvious that if a larger force was immediately necessary, such a force could not be collected in that manner, and that recourse must be had to some other means. The SECRETARY at WAR said, he did entertain the hope that gentlemen would have delayed the discussion upon this bill till it was fairly before the House ; if that course had been adopted, much discussion would have been avoid-It had been said that we had not had recourse ed, because if they had seen the bill, they would to the measures that were adopted last war: he have seen that there was no foundation for many had the highest respect, and even veneration, of the objections which had been made. He ad- for the administration of that time, but still he mitted, that gentlemen were justified, if they could not aprove of all the measures which were thought proper, in discussing the bill in this then adopted. The right hon. gent, then adstage. The honourable gentleman who had verted to the state of the army at different pespoken last, had spoken of treading back our for- riods of the last war, particularly in 1796, and mer errors, but how this measure, which was new contended that it was such as ought not to inin its principle and unprecedented in its extent, duce gentlemen to advise the adoption of a could be called treading back our former errors, similar system. The question now was simply he could not conceive. The honourable gentle- this, what ought we to do at the present time, man had also complained that this plan was ill- and under the present circumstances? We had rimed, and that it ought to have been produced a very large army on foot, but at the same time sooner. Upon this point he did not thick that we were hard pressed on many points: it was the honourable gentleman was borne out by absolutely necessary that a large force should be his Majesty's Declaration, but he contended, raised, and he denied that they could be raised that ever since the conclusion of the definitive by recruiting, in the time which was necessary. treaty of peace, every measure had been adopt- But it was said this was merely a defensive sysed, consistent with the practice of this country, tem, and it was recommended to ballot for the to keep the army and the navy upon a large esta- army. Upon this point he agreed with an hon. blishment. It was open to the honourable gen- gent. (Mr. Sheridan), and should oppose such leman who spoke last and his friends, to come a measure upon every constitutional principle. forward last session, and to have declared their Every man was bound to stand forward in sentiments, if they did not think ministers were defence of the country in time of danger, that doing enough for the security of the country. was the principle upon which the militia was He now came to those observations which had founded, and upon which this measure was been inade respecting the advantage of a regular founded. He should therefore object to the army. Nobody, he believed, ever asserted that plan which had been suggested, because it was a regular army was not the best; but the honour- not regular, and because it was not constituable gentleman had himself stated the reasons tional. There was one thing he was sorry he why we could not have as large a regular army did not mention, when he was opening this as other countries of equal population. The in- measure to the House, as it might have taken sular situation of the country, its civil and com-away some of the objections which he had mercial occupation, its opulence, the circum- made to this plan; he meant the power |