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to the Reports of the finance committees, he observed the results shewed the progressive increase of the revenue, and the improved energies of the country. He then exhibited a view of the number of ships, men, and tons, employed a different periods in the merchant service, which abundantly proved that the commercial kept pace with the financial prosperity of the country: and those in the last year, he observed, were treble to what they were in 1779. Adverting generally to the national expenditure, his Lordship did not deem it incumbent on him, considering the view upon which he came forward, to dwell upon it in detail. He then alluded to the situation in which the country was placed, particularly with respect to its late adversary, a power which had not, since the pacification, manifested any genuine proofs of conciliation towards us; and observed, that it would hardly be recommended from any quarter, to reduce the present expenditure. His Lordship concluded with stating his disapprobation of the motion.

recommended the adoption of his Noble Friend's motion.

Lord GRENVILLE observed, that he should proceed to call their Lordships' attention to the subject upon which the Noble Lord had grounded his motion, though he, in some degree, differed from that Noble Lord as to what he had advanced; his object, however, in so coming forward, was not to place himself in opposition to any of the Noble Lords who had delivered their sentiments, but impelled by considerations of public duty, to shew, as far as he was able, and which he thou, ht was the bounden duty of all, to shew to the coun try its true situation, by a fair and manly statement of the circumstances under which it was placed. That system of concealment which prevailed too much of late, had been carried too far, and particularly upon a subject, the most interesting of all others to the country. He thought no Member of that or the other House of Parliament, had need to apologize for bringing forward a subject of such vital importance fairly to the view of the country. There must, however, be persons conscious of not having thus come forward to serve the country: but with respect to Parliament gene. rally, it was necessary they should open the eyes of the country, and, particularly in such a momentous crisis as the present, shew them their real situation: it ought to be made clear to the country, whether or not its finances were in that state, that there existed a large disposable surplus, or a real alarming deňciency. In contemplating the circumstance of a deficiency, it should be further inquired into, whether there really existed a necessity of supplying those deficiencies by that most ruinous of all financial measures, a system of peace loans? He acknowledged the utility of the various accounts which had been laid before the House; however, in the important, but perhaps rather general view which he then meant to take of the subject, he was saved the trouble of adverting to them in detail; a casual reference would be sufficient for his purpose, Those which he should have occasion to refer to were of unquestionable authenticity, being signed by the Secretary of the Treasury, and the results of these, he meant to contrast with the statements made by the Chancellor of the The Earl of MOIRA proceeded, and after Exchequer himself, taken from a publication contending that much of the financial state-issued by authority into the world, and with a ments on the part of Ministers was unfounded, adverted in some degree to their political conduct, of which, as it tended to operate, particularly in a financial point of view, he spoke in terms of disapprobation. He thought Parliament in these respects ought to act frankly with the country, instead of concealing its real situation. In the present stage of the business, and considering the voluminous nature of the accounts, even Members of that House could not become masters of the subject, still less the public at large. He contended for the existence of an alarming deûcit, and strongly

The Earl of MOIRA spoke in answer to what had fallen from the Noble Lord who spoke last, at some length: he complimented the Noble Lord who had introduced the subject, for the repeated display he made of talents which would one day become highly useful to his country: he deprecated the mode of substituting a branch of the subject, for the main points of it, and observed, that it was not so much on the details of the subject, as on its final results, that the merits of the question depended. In that view it was indifferent to him whether the Noble Lord was in error one, two, or three millions. He then entered into some calculations to prove the nonexistence of the surplus advanced by a Noble Lord on a former occasion. The accounts before the House, particularly those moved for by the Noble Lord, were of a very voluminous nature, and, in his mind, the subject required farther and deliberate inquiry.

Lord AUCKLAND just rose to explain, that the Noble Earl seemed to misconceive him; a part of what he adverted to, was by him only admitted for the sake of argument.

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view to the full information of the public; and statements which he could not refrain from observing, had been fatally, to a certain degree, credited and acted upon by the monied interest of the country. In considering the subject before them, he disclaimed the least idea whatever of exciting any sensation of despondency. On a subject of this particular nature, he knew a speaker was more liable to misrepresentation than on any other subject, and in that view he felt himself called upon distinctly to state his firm conviction, that in stead of there existing any real cause for de

spondency or dismay, the country had upon every account just reason to be confident of the strength and adequacy of its own resources. The country was able to cover the existence of much greater deficiencies, and this he was perfectly able to prove; and farther, that it was not only equal to maintain its existence and independence, but even to repel aggression, and to take ample vengeance on the authors of that aggression: the Parliament, under such circumstances, should not shrink from its duty, but fairly call these resources into action, and provide a revenue fully adequate to meet the occasions of the country. It was in the recollection of their Lordships, that, a short time before the Christmas recess, the finance minister of the country, at an unusual period of the session, and in circumstances of extraordinary moment, anticipated the customary statement of the finances of the present year. The reason assigned for this proceeding was, the necessity of laying before the country a true picture of its finances; he was relieved from much trouble on the score of reference, as his statements respecting that display of the finances, were drawn from a publication which he had reason to believe was ushered into public notice under the authority of Ministers, and therefore it could not be conceived to contain a false account of those statements. Notwithstanding these specious advantages, the effect of this publication was to delude every monied man who placed confidence in it. On this head he could say much; but the consideration of the subject, in the view he alluded to, had better be left until the real budget of the present year should come forward, which in the course of a few weeks may be found necessary. Among other points of finance, that statement exhibited the melancholy expedient of a loan; but the question was, whether that was the last time such a measure would be recurred to? That publication contained also a statement of the revenue and expenditure of the country, and laid before the public the comfortable view of a surplus of even a million sterling. What the effect must be of such a statement on the public at large, and on the metropolis, may be easily conceived. It was not long, however, before doubts were entertained of the truth of these statements, and they had nearly fallen into complete discredit, when a Noble Lord was pleased to step forth, and contend that the calculations in question, instead of being exaggerated, were below the truth. In considering the real state of the question, he would undertake to prove, that the actual revenue at that very time, instead of yielding a surplus, was in fact more than two millions below the expenditure, which, as the result of that statement, exhibited a gross and inexcusable error of at least three millions sterling. In another point of view, he contended, that the actual revenue would be found to fall even four millions short of the peace establishment, as voted by the other House of Parliament in

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November last. In calculating those points, he should take the year as ending the 5th of January, and he had no hesitation in taking his statements from the documents he had before specified, and that the statement made by the financial minister on the 19th of December was full of the grossest fallacy His first reference would be to the 29th page of the publication alluded to, and there the supposed expenditure was stated to be in the aggregate 11,530,000l. from which were to be deducted the 2-17ths for the Irish proportion, and also the Irish charges upon the consolidated fund: but afterwards was to be added a charge of 500,000l. which would make the total supposed expenditure of the navy, army, ordnance, and miscellaneous services, to amount to 10,533,0col. for Great Britain. In this part of the calculation he had to observe, that one material article of expense was entirely overlooked, namely, the extra buildings in the navy, which this year amounted to 900,000l. The average amount of this necessary expense during the last peace was about 500,000l. per annum; but allowing for the various differences which had taken place since that period, he thought the average expense of that department could not be estimated at less than 700,000l. per annum, which, added to the other articles of expenditure, would form a total of 11,233,000. This would be the aggregate when the expenses could be reduced to the amount stated in the speech. In considering the amount of the revenue, as set forth in the same publication, the Noble Lord argued that certain heads thereof were not accurately discussed. He alluded principally to the consideration of the land and malt taxes. He then passed to a review of the statements in the consolidated fund, and described the real free revenue to be only that which was disposable after the payment of the interest of the national debt, and charges of the sinking fund: this was stated as amounting to 10,599,000l. to which was added, after the produce of the lottery (in calculating which his Lordship seemed to say, there was some mistake)—the expected contribution of 500,000l. from the revenues of India. In this part of his speech, his Lordship took occasion to panegyrize the Administration, and the abilities of the Noble Marquis, at the head of the government in India, whose talents, great as they were, in negotiation, war, and civil government, were, perhaps, exceeded by those he possessed for matters of finance, a ground upon which his enemies had unaccountably strove to calumniate him; but this reference, his Lord. ship observed, naturally depended upon the continuance of peace in India: this and other points made the supposed total of the ways and means to be 11,595,000l. which after deducting the hypothetical expenditure, as set forth in the same document, left an imaginary surplus of 1,032,000l. In controverting these statements, his Lordship entered into a variety of detailed calculations, drawn, as he had be

Ministers, particularly with respect to their
financial measures. At the same time he dis-
claimed all ideas of personal animosity; so far
from it, that for several of then he entertained
the warmest feelings of friendship and regard.
The great object of his argument was to shew
that they had not met the financial difficulties ef
the country in any one instance. He adverted
to the salutary expedient of their predecessors,
of raising part of the supplies within the year,
which he thought they acted unwisely, as well
as weakly, in not following up. Their aban-
donment of the system of finance laid down by
these Ministers, had reduced them to the
miserable expedient of peace loans, measures
which would palsy the operations of the sinking
fund, and check the gradual extinction of the
public debt: he principally condemned the
financial system pursued by Ministers, which,
at the end of two years, left them with a reaf
deficiency of four millions, instead of the
boasted surplus of a million sterling: and be
insisted, that no financial minister, in the pre-
sent circumstances of the country, would in
his duty, if he shrunk from the project of
equalizing the actual revenue with the neces
sary expenditure of the country.

fore observed, from the accounts before the House, signed by the Secretrry of the Treasury. He first adverted to the different heads of proposed reduction, upon which the foregoing conclusions were drawn, and which it would be superfluous to observe, were, in the present circumstances of this country, totally out of the question. He would consider what the actual situation of the country now would be, were the proposed reductions carried into effect. Under the head of the army, to reduce the expenses in the sum proposed, a number of about 25,000 men should be reduced, which, according to the plan of disposing the army, would, at abour the period of the delivery of the King's message, not have left one foot soldier in Great Britain. In the head of reduction proposed for the navy, about 1,540,000l. was intended to be saved, and to do this, he calculated about 18,000 men must be reduced: this, according to the newly broached doctrine that ships might be ready for sea without men (a laugh), may be practicable enough; but were the reduction actually made, we should now have no navy fit for 'service. After shewing the impracticability of those intended reductions, and calculating upon the indispensable expenses of the actual establishment, he contended that the permanent establishment, as arranged even in November last, would be 13,436,000l. A diminution was a consideration of possibility, but a consider able increase, one of great probability. His Lordship then proceeded to the consideration of the real income of the nation, and after touching upon the various sources from which it was derived, and the indispensable charges to be made thereon, he calculated the total of the actual ways and means to meet the real expenditure of the country, at not more than 9,682,000l. He then adverted to the Austrian loan, upon which, after commenting upon its origin, and the important circumstances connected with that measure, he declared his opinion, that it behoved Parliament to make provision for the interest of it, which he stated at about 497,ocol. Pursuing the line of general calculation further, he stated, that the free Lord PELHAM likewise defended the accu revenue amounted to about 9,185,000l. which, racy of the accounts, and objected to making calculated together with the heads of the the statements which had been made in other genuine state he had given of the supplies and places, the subject of discussion in that House. ways and means, would evince the deficiency Those accounts would have been much better he had set out with stating, of more than two discussed in another place, where they could millions sterling. The Noble Lord then pro- have been properly met by the person who ceeded to calculate the different heads of re- brought them forward. A severe invective venue and expenditure, upon a more en had been made against that person, but it larged scale, and to demonstrate deficits should be recollected, at least if the publicato a more considerable amount. He then ex-tion which had been alluded to, could be depatiated on the conduct of Ministers, in rather pended upon, that it had been stated by that concealing the true financial circumstances of person, that it would be necessary to make the the country, than coming forward manfully to revenue equal the expenditure. He observed meet the exigencies of the case, and at once that the Imperial loan could not with any prorender the revenue equal to the necessary ex-priety be considered as a subsidy, but as a loan penditure of the country; and condemned the to be paid by Austria.

system of the political conduct of Ministers,

The Earl of WESTMORLAND defended the accuracy of the accounts. The expenditure, he said, amounted to 13,000,000l.; and when the produce of the consolidated fund and of the land and malt was deducted, the deficiency would not amount to more than about 3,400,000l. The produce of the old taxes had, he said, increased more than 3,000,000!. He must, however, enter his protest against the practice of making statements made in other places, and pamphlets, the subject of discussion in that House. In adverting to the expenditure of the present year, he said, that it was undoubtedly large, and ought not to be taken as an average criterion; but it should be recollected, that, under the present circum. stances of the country, economy might only have invited the sword of the spoiler.

as equally censurable with the others. He The Bishop of ROCHESTER said, if it was proceeded to comment on the conduct of merely a question whether the accounts on the

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HOUSE OF COMMONS.

table were correct or not, it might certainly | ther would that be agreeable to the regular be proper to appoint a committee to investigate practice, until after most of the business them, in order that, if there were errors, they which constituted the orders of the day was might be detected; and if there were not, that over: the Noble Lord would, therefore, allow the accounts might remain unsuspected and him to say, he was not well advised with reunimpeached. It was, however, to be con- spect to the terms of his motion: he could sidered, whether this was the moment for en- have wished that the Noble Lord had given tering into such an investigation. This was notice, that after the orders of the day were peculiarly to be considered, because, perhaps, disposed of, he should bring forward this subat the next meeting of that House they and the ject, if any motion should be made to adjourn country might be called upon to unite in re- over to-morrow; and the Noble Lord would pressing the ambition and chastising the bad allow him to say also, that until a motion of faith of one whom he could not, perhaps, at another description was made, this course was the present moment call our enemy, but whom irregular; but the Noble Lord would soon he would designate as our most detestable have an opportunity of submitting the subfriend. stance of his present motion to the House, for he intended to move that the House do at its rising adjourn to Monday next. Having said this upon the form, he would now, with the leave of the House, state the objections he entertained to the substance of the motion of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had said, that the circumstances which had occurred had disproved the statement made by his Majesty's Ministers: the Noble Lord was not correct in that statement. The statement made by his Majesty's Ministers was not disproved by the circumstances which had actually occurred. It was stated by him, this day se'nnight, not that he was convinced that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris, for he had no knowledge of the fact, but that he had reason to apprehend it, and that apprehension arose from his knowledge of the fact that General Andreossi had applied for passports. It was an inference of his from this fact and accompanying circumstances, that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris, and he then believed that Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris; but he never said Lord Whitworth had quitted Paris

Friday, May 13.-(See Minutes, p. 813.) [STATE OF THE NEGOTIATION.]-Lord GRANVILLE LEVISON said, that he rose for the purpose of moving, that the House should at its rising adjourn till to-morrow. In making this motion he would not repeat the arguments which had been urged on Friday last, which appeared to him to be unanswerable. The events which had occurred since Friday appeared to him completely to justify those who voted against the adjournment till Monday. It would be in the recollection of the House, that the intelligence which arrived after that discussion completely contradicted the statement which had been made by the Minister. After the Rt. Hon. Gent. had stated, that Lord Whitworth had left Paris, it surely was a matter of sufficient importance to have communicated to the House on Saturday that he had not left Paris. Lord Whitworth, it was understood, remained at Paris, because some further pro--he made no such declaration. The Noble positions had been made; similar circumstances might again occur; but at all events, it was proper that the House should be at its post to receive any communication that Government might be enabled to make on so important a subject: he should therefore move, "That the House should, at its rising, adjourn "till to-morrow."

Lord had expressed his regret that the House did not sit on Saturday last, and he had added his conviction that many gentlemen, and this was a circumstance worthy of observation, that many Gentlemen who voted in the majority for an adjournment to Monday, might regret the House did not sit. Now, he knew of no reason why that event should have excited any regret in the minds of any of the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, Gentlemen who voted in that majority; he he apprehended, that, independent of the ob- was, on the contrary, convinced it ought to jection which he felt to the motion of the be matter of satisfaction on the part of those Noble Lord, in point of substance, there was who supported the motion, that the House one, in point of form, which rendered it, he did not sit on the Saturday, as proposed by the presumed, inadmissible. Such a motion, he amendment moved by an Hon. Gent. He believed, was never allowed to pass in that alluded to the effect which might have resultHouse as matter of course the House would ed from their sitting on that day, and he adjourn to to-morrow, without any motion, begged the House would pardon him for not unless it should specifically determine to ad- stating the reason for saying this. It was, journ to some other day; and, therefore, the however, his intention, if the Noble Lord had Noble Lord's motion was needless as well as not superseded him, to propose that the House unprecedented: the only way in which the should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next, motion now before the House could be regular and that he intended to propose exactly as in terms, would be that of an amendment to usual, without any comment, being perfectly a motion to adjourn to some future day; nei-prepared, however, if any question was put VOL. III * Qi

Gent. was, however, he hoped, speaking not again on conjecture, but from some assurance that to-morrow he would not be able to make any communication to the House: if that was the case, the House should not take the trouble of meeting, because it would be only meet

to him by any Member of the House, to answer it as distinctly as he could, consistently with his duty. On Friday last he had stated to the House the opinion which he entertained, which was, that Lord Whitworth was on his departure from Paris. He was not able, at present, to make any communication what-ing in vain; but then he wished to understand ever to the House, or to express an opinion whether Lord Whitworth was or was not on his way from Paris, but there was no probability of any information whatever being received, so as to enable him to make any communication from his Majesty to that House to-morrow. The Speaker would observe on the regularity of the motion now before the House, after which, he presumed, the Noble Lord would not persist in it; and if so, he should afterwards move, that the House do, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next.

Mr. CANNING observed, that the Rt. Hon. Gent. who had just spoken, had stated two objections to the motion now before the House: one in point of form, the other in point of substance. If in point of form the motion was defective, the motion must fall, because it was irregular; but until he heard that from the Chair, he should be much inclined to doubt the irregularity of this motion; and he doubted it on the ground that the last motion upon this subject, which was this day se'nnight, was entertained. On that occasion the Rt. Hon. Gent. moved, "That "the House do, at its rising, adjourn to Mon"day next," and the amendment proposed to that was, to insert "to-morrow" and that was in substance the motion of his Noble Friend to-day; and as all the rules of the House were founded on good sense, he saw no reason why this motion should not be entertained in its present form; he could not enter into any distinction which the Rt. Hon. Gent. intended to take, for he could not see the difference between debating a thing in the shape of an original motion, and that of debating the same thing in the shape of an amendment to an original motion. The motion now before the House was the very same thing in point of sense as the amendment moved this day se'nnight by an Hon. Gent. and which was debated for several hours in that House, without any body being rebuked or corrected for it. He was not aware how the matter could be objected to now, not having been objected to then. He confessed, however, after having heard the statement of the Rt. Hon. Gent. on his own conviction, that the meeting of the House to-morrow would not enable him to make any communication to the House; he should, for one, not wish to press for a division; but here, again, he must take the distinction of the Rt. Hon. Gent. who said he had formerly spoken his opinion, as it was formed in consequence of the conduct of the French ambassador; that from that conduct he drew certain inferences. The Rt. Hon.

the Rt. Hon. Gent. distinctly whether he now said, that he should not be able to make any communication to the House to-morrow? If he did not say so, he thought the House should be pressed to a division, and he should press it to a division, when so many Gent. felt as he did, and as his Noble Friend felt, that this was not a time when the House of Commons should consult its own ease, nor be even too scrupulous in adhering to its own usages, when either might be at variance with its great public duty. On the contrary, it was a time when the House of Commons should be unremitting in its labours, for the purpose of attending to the interests of the country: the House of Commons was the proper organ for conveying information from the Executive Government to the people; it ought therefore to be on its post, and be vigilant; nor could he help thinking, that a communication from the Executive Government to Parliament was a more constitutional source of information than a placard on the Stock Exchange, upon the question of peace and war. He did not think it consistent with the duty of the House of Commons to put itself into a situation in which they would not have the means of re ceiving information from the Executive Government and conveying it to the people, and that for no better reason than that they chose to take a holyday on Saturday.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that the observations of the last speaker were fair, upon the supposition that a communication might be made to the House tomorrow on the substance of the motion now before the House; but on the regularity of the motion he should appeal to the Chair, from which the House would derive correct knowledge upon the subject: he should be ashamed to refer to his own knowledge, although his attention had for many years been directed to the subject. He appealed to the Chair, whether, unless an adjournment was proposed to a day after the morrow, it ever was expressed other than as he had stated, namely, "that this House do now adjourn." What he had said this night had not been cor rectly repeated. He had said, that he was thoroughly convinced that no communication would be made to his Majesty, to enable his Majesty to make a communication to the House to-morrow; he thought that no communication ought to come from his Majesty to that House, until it was known that the negotiation had taken a satisfactory turn, or was totally broken off-until Lord Whitworth had arrived in this country. He

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