Lord PELHAM defended the measure on the general grounds adopted by Noble Lords at his side of the House. After which, some further discussion took place, chiefly between the Earls of Radnor and Carnarvon, and Lord Hobart, in which the last-mentioned Peer expressed his hope, that in general the provision would be unnecessary, save in a few counties, where it may be found indispensable. The question was called for, when the strangers were ordered to withdraw, peparatory to a division, which, however, did not take place. The remaining clauses of the bill were then agreed to by the committee, and the House resuming, ordered the report to be received the next day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. TIERNEY observed, that as to the course now proposed, he should be ready to assent to it on certain conditions, which were to pursue the subject further. He had no difficulty in giving way to every suggestion that might appear favourable to the individual now in custody; his great object was to get out the whole truth. It was now said there were two charges against this man, and that he had been heard only upon one of them. He knew but of one charge against the prisoner, James Trotter, which was, that he had disobeyed the warrant of the Speaker of that House, and an order of the Chairman of a committee of that House; that was the charge against this person: it was, indeed, true, that that charge was strengthened by the evidence which had been laid before the House in addition to the Report of the committee, which stated him to be in contempt. The only question upon the evidence was, whether it furnished ground for a more harsh or a more lenient punishment than the House would have thought itself called upon to inflict, in case the whole matter had rested upon the Report of the committee? But the House, if it heard the prisoner again, must, in justice, hear the party accusing him again; and the House, if they felt any inconvenience in this course, would bear in mind that they brought it upon themselves, for the course was for them to commit the prisoner to Newgate at once, upon the Report of the committee, by which he ap peared to be in contempt; and the House would recollect also, that as to the inconvenience felt by the prisoner, it was also an in Monday, April 4-(See Minutes, p. 668.) [JAMES TROTTER.]-Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that the prisoner could not be heard again at the bar upon the present charge, because he had been heard already. He thought the two resolutions of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney) perfectly regular, and that there was no occasion at present to go beyond them: the substance of these resolutions was, that James Trotter, now in custody of the Serjeant at Arms, having been duly summoned by the warrant of the Speaker, and the order of the Chairman of the committee, and hav-convenience which he had wilfully brought ing disobeyed such warrant and order, had been guilty of a breach of the privilege of the House. This Mr. Tierney had moved. The next with which he proposed to follow it up was, "That the said James Trotter be com"mitted to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate." Mr. BRAGGE observed, that he had no wish upon this subject, but that the House should conform to the principles of justice: he had no concern with any of the parties; he hardly knew the name of the individual who was the subject of this motion; but he thought the House had rendered it necessary to hear the prisoner again, from the course the House pursued when he was before them. The House need not have taken that course, for it had full power to act upon the Report of the committee, and to have committed the prisoner immediately; but the House had not done so, but ordered another course to be pursued, and which, in his opinion, varied the course which the House ought to pursue now; and now he thought it proper to hear the prisoner again, because, by ordering the minutes to be laid before the House, they had aggravated the prisoner's case, and he had not been heard in answer to that aggravation. VOL. III. upon himself. For his part, he felt that he was shewing a great deal of forbearance in not carrying this matter further, nor did he but if this matter was pursued, and any other wish to press against this man any thing harsh; person was concerned in this most unfair proceeding, he ought to be brought forward and properly punished. He thought it an interesting matter to the public, that all the adherents of this man and his abettors, and perhaps the founders of the plan by which the purposes of justice had been defeated, should be punished. The motion which he should regularly make, after the present one was disposed of, would be, that James Trotter be now sent to Newgate. If he should hereafter petition that he may have an opportunity of being heard to explain away any misconception he may say had been entertained on his case, he should wish the House to hear the petition; but if that should be done, he now gave distinct notice that he should lay in his claim to be heard on the other side. He should propose to examine witnesses, and to bring home very serious charges, he believed, against some other persons, some of high station. He had reason to believe that this would distinctly appear if the matter was inquired into, and that was a matter which he had *Kk much more desire to pursue than the punish- a right to say, that thus absenting himse ment of this individual. He now only should move that this person should be committed to Newgate; but if Trotter took his advice as a friend, he would go to Newgate and stay a while quietly there, and stir no further in the matter. In point of public justice, more ought to be done in this business than he was now doing. He should now move, that James Trotter, having been duly summoned with the Speaker's warrant and Chairman's order, &c. and disobeyed such warrant and order, has been guilty of a breach of the privilege of this House. was a crime of considerable magnitude, and that it was aggravated by what appeared on the minutes of the committee, which had been laid before the House; but then he could not help thinking that the man ought to be heard as to the matter of aggravation: but the Hon. Gent. said, he had no objection to the prisoner's producing evidence in his defence; now if he did not object to his producing evidence in his defence, how could be object to the man's being heard in his defenced But he said, that if Trotter was advised to make any further defence, the other side must have an opportunity of offering es The question was put and carried nemine dence. Now, this he could not assent to; he contradicente. The SPEAKER then suggested, that the latter part of the vote, that of its being nemine contradicente, ought not to be entered, lest it should imply a doubt upon a matter which was clear, and have some effect upon future proceedings: by entering these words nemine contradicente, it might seem as if the House thought a case might happen in which disobedience to the warrant of the Speaker was not a breach of privilege, and so the authority of the House might be weakened in future, by endeavouring to mark this particular case: every disobedience to the warrant of the Speaker, or order of a Chairman of a committee of that House, was a clear breach of privilege, and therefore there was no propriety in marking one case more than another, in the event of such disobedience; the vote upon them always ought to pass nemine contradicente, but never to be so entered, lest it might bring a doubt where there ought to be none. thought it impossible to hear any more th dence upon the subject. It was impossible hear any further evidence, even on behal the prisoner himself, because the House already, by voting that the prisoner had be guilty of a breach of privilege, decided the he must be punished, and the House cond not hear any evidence against that decision Still, as to the quantum of the punishment, he thought that the man ought to be heard. not by witnesses; he never had an idea that, because they could not be upon oath, and their testimony could not be received against that which was upon oath, and now before the House; but he might be allowed to address the House for himself, upon the matter urged against him as aggravation, for upon that he had not been heard. The Hon. Gent. stated, that the absence of this man was a crime that he admitted; and he thought upon the evidence, that the absence must be taken to be wilful. The Hon. Get seemed to take this matter up on behalf of some of the parties: he had no knowledge of that sort; he knew nothing of the case, further than as it appeared from the evidence on the table. But the Hon. Gent. took a more active part, and seemed to speak from further information, and to say there were others to be implicated in this matter, if further inquired into: he then said, that if this man should a any time petition the House to be released, he should move another inquiry. Now that Mr. BRAGGE observed, that he had heard would be going farther than he thought nothing which had changed his opinion rela- the Hon. Gent. ought to go. However, if tive to the course which the House ought ul-the prisoner was brought up and heard, Mr. timately to take in this proceeding. He had Bragge said his purpose would be answered. said, that in substance there were now two charges against this person instead of one: 1st, that he had disobeyed the summons of that House; 2dly, that he had wilfully, and from corrupt motives, been guilty of a breach of the privileges of that House: the latter was totally distinct from the former; to one of which the man had been heard, to the other he had not; for the one therefore he ought to be punished without further discussion, for the other he ought to be heard before he was punished at all. The Hon. Gent. whose motion was now before the House, had The House immediately adopted this suggestion from the Chair, and the words nem. con. were left out. Mr. TIERNEY then moved, "That the said "James Trotter be, for his said offence, com"mitted to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate." Mr. TIERNEY said, he did not see what advantage this man could have by being heard at the bar of the House, if he was not allowed to give evidence; for how, without evidence, could he hope to alter the feeling of the House upon the case? He had no objection to evi dence being given in behalf of this unfortu nate man, for it was not punishment on him that was his main object-he wanted to develope the scene. He had been considered by the Rt. Hon. Gent. who spoke last, as if he was some agent of the parties in this business; he was no such character. He certainly did hear from Sir John Henderson the nature of this case; and he knew no reason whatever why a Member of Parliament should not hear 1 the case of a party aggrieved, who came to the House to ask redress-as a Member of Parliament he addressed the House on such a case. As to taking an active part either one way or the other, he saw no impropriety in that, so that a man followed the conviction of his own mind. He denied that he took upon | himself this matter as an agent of a party. The Rt. Hon. Gent. ought to recollect, that none of this matter of aggravation was recommended at first by him; for the course which he advised was, that the House ought to proceed immediately upon the Report of the committee, which course, had the House taken it, would have saved all the trouble which must now be taken. Under these impressions, he could not help feeling a little sore, under the idea of being called upon in this manner: he should repeat, that he had reason to be perfectly convinced, that if this matter was followed up, certain foul proceedings would appear, and facts would come out against some very high persons; and he thought, that instead of accusing him of going further than he ought, some parties ought to thank him for his lenity. Mr. BRAGGE saw no reason why the Hon. Gent. should feel sore at any thing that was said; there was nothing intended to hurt him. If he knew of any underhand proceeding in this business, he might make it the subject of a substantive motion: all that was said upon that by him was, that the Hon, Gent. seemed to have some information from one of the parties in this proceeding. Mr. Bragge retained his opinion that Trotter ought to be heard upon the subject-matter of the aggravation of his case, because upon that matter he had not been heard at all; but that he could call no witnesses. Mr. SHERIDAN differed from both the Hon. Gent. who had spoken on the subject, both on the former day, and the present occasion, for he thought that the matter ought now to be concluded. The prisoner could have no more to say, for he had been heard already, and his crime stood established, and was even admitted by himself. But as to evidence being given on the part of this man's accuser, what would that be but trying this cause over again; and, perhaps, implicating parties who have not had an opportunity of being heard, and perhaps, too, upon charges of a very serious nature? This would be bringing forward again the whole case of the election, which had been already decided by the committee, and would be superseding the authority of Mr. Grenville's bill. inquiry would not encroach upon the provi sions of Mr. Grenville's bill, because this was not an inquiry into the merits of the election, which had been settled by the committee, and whose decision was not to be reviewed by the House; but it was an inquiry into collateral matter, which the provisions of Mr. Grenville's bill did not touch, and in which the House was at liberty to proceed according to its usage, as if Mr. Grenville's bill had never passed. The question was then put, that the said James Trotter, for his said offence, be committed to his Majesty's gaol of Newgate.-Ordered nem. con. HOUSE OF LORDS. Wednesday, April 6.-(See Minutes, p. 668.) [MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL. Lord Ho BART moved the third reading of the militia officers' bill. The Earl of RADNOR took the opportunity to propose some flight amendments in certain parts of the bill, which were agreed to by the House. The bill being read a third time, The Earl of RADNOR rose to propose the introduction of a clause by way of rider to the bill, the particulars of which he stated to their Lordships; but the leading effect he described, would be to restore the command of those companies to the field officers of the militia corps, of which, by the regulations not long since adopted, they were deprived, but which were still held by officers of corresponding rank in regiments of the line. In recommending the clause to the adoption of the House, his Lordship recapitulated some of his former observations on the proceedings with respect to the militia, and urged, that besides tending so far to restore the militia to its original constitutional principle, it would diminish the difficulty of finding officers properly qualified, by lessening the number of captains in each corps. The Noble Earl also made some observations with respect to the subordinate parts of the clause, and concluded by regularly moving for its adoption. Lord HOBART felt himself called upon, under the present circumstances, to resist the adoption of the proposed clause. In the first place, he observed, it would directly controvert a legislative provision made in the last session of Parliament, by which that alteration, proposed after a due consideration of the point, was deemed advisable. The ef| fect of that regulation, which he thought likely to be advantageous, they had not yet had an opportunity of experiencing; and he was Mr. FRANKLAND thought that the proposed of opinion, that, at least, such an opportunity should be given. Nor was this the only objection be entertained against the clause; it would go, in a great degree, to render inefficacious one of the leading provisions of the bill itself, as it would so far give a greater latitude to the power of the Lord Lieutenants in these respects, than was in the contemplation of the bill. The Noble Secretary here described the effect and intention of that part of the bill to which he alluded, and having argumentatively enforced the above points, concluded by observing, he felt it his duty to oppose the clause moved by the Noble Earl. Earl SPENCER delivered his sentiments on the question at some length, in the course of which he expatiated on the importance of the militia as a constitutional defensive force, and expressed his regret at the alterations which had been lately made in that system. He thought the bill before the House, in that point of view, one of considerable importance, and, with respect to it, he must observe, that no case of necessity for it had been made out by Ministers, which he thought should have been done before they could be justified in calling upon the Legislature to adopt provisions so contradictory to the constitutional principles of the militia as originally established. On these general grounds, he was inclined to support the proposition of the Noble Earl, whose particular observations in recommendation of the clause his Lordship also enforced. had also lain dormant till within these five years, since which time they have been brought into use, and, he was sorry to say, to the injury of many worthy men. Among the members of the church of England, he had to contemplate with pleasure many characterǝ who were the highest honour to the nation; men of simple habits, amiable disposition, and laborious life, who were liable to feel the effect of one of these old statutes, and who would rather redeem themselves with money, than suffer the exposure which an information, founded on the act of Henry VIII. would enforce. Notwithstanding, it was his wish that some measure should be adopted to make the clergy attentive to the duties of the church. As the laws stood at present, relative to the duty of clergymen, they doubtless contained much defect; and it was high time to do what my Lord Coke had recommended above a hundred and fifty years ago, that was, to revise the statutes applicable to the regulation of the church. By the advice of his friends he had undertaken to give this subject serious consideration, and it would give him considerable pleasure, if he could serve a respect. able class of men, consistently with the safety of religion and the morality of the country. On a former occasion, when this subject was discussed, he had expressed his wish that time should be given to deliberate on the bill then before the House; but every Member must recollect what a mob of bills rushed through the House, in the last agony of passing; yet he did not expect that the former bill would have been one of them. With respect to the ac-present bill, he would inform the House expli citly, that it is fundamentally the same as the former bill. The bill he was about to submit to the wisdom of the House, contained an exemption to several persons; whether this was right he would leave the House to decide. Wednesday, April 6. (See Minutes, p. 669.) He had not made any provision for the paro [CLERGY NON-RESIDENCE BILL.]Sir chial clergy, not but it would be right to do WILLIAM SCOTT addressed the House upon so, but he thought it ought to come from anothe nature of the bill he meant to offer to ther quarter. It was his wish that the parthe consideration of Parliament. He said it sonage-houses should be put in proper repair was not his intention to trespass on the House for the reception of their proper inhabitants: any length of time, as the subject had under- from the great decay these dwellings had been gone much discussion at various times; but suffered to go into, many clergymen were he considered it necessary to observe, that under the necessity of residing at a great disever since the establishment of religion in this tance from their duty. As to those benefices country, there were existing laws which regu- to which there is no house attached, some lated the national church, and these laws pos- provision ought to be made to render the sessed considerable merit, and evinced the clergy more comfortable. With respect, said wisdom of those legislators who framed them, the Learned Gent, to the small benefices, and which enforced the clergy to give the something has been done by Mr. Gilbert's act, strictest attention to the duties of the church, but he thought it had not gone far enough to as well as allowing a certain provision to ren- be of real service to this order of the clergy. der her members in every respect comfortable. The method he should propose would be, But these ancient laws had for centuries lain that Government should advance a large sum dormant. There were also several acts of a of money, as a fund, to mend the stipends of more recent date; in Lord Bacon's time, laws curates; this he thought necessary for the bet were framed for the regulation of the clergy; ter support of those numerous, worthy, labothe letter and spirit of them were nearly therious men, on whom the religion and morality same as those of an anterior date, but which of the country much depended. He would The question was then put, the proposed clause was rejected, and the bill read a third time and passed, and a message sent to quaint the Commons therewith. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Не not wound the feelings of the House, by any | had been since made to Parliament for adrecital of the gloomy stories which had been ditional assistance, and repeated sums voted communicated to him, of the extreme distress by the House for the support of the West these gentlemen have suffered since the act of India trade. Different periods had also been Henry VIII. has been put in force, as it has mentioned for the repayment of the money been the means of their losing those livings advanced by Government; but the House which just gave them bread. The letters he well knew that it had been a promise without had received from clergymen of this descrip- a performance. A large sum of money was tion, who are now in the greatest misery, granted in the year 1799, for the service of affected his mind much; he therefore hoped our West India connexion, and not long after some measure would be adopted by the wis- this period an application was made for a dom of Parliament to relieve their necessities. longer time to repay the borrowed sums. The alteration of Queen Anne's act has made was ready to acknowledge that he had no some progress to relieve the evil of small bene- objection to the West India security, but he fices, and it would be a matter of future con- thought their applications grew upon us; we sideration, whether it would not be better to therefore ought to be cautious how we make consolidate Queen Anne's bounty for the ad- use of the public money. And he did not vantage of small livings. He had not made doubt but every Member in the House was any provision for the sister church, if that acquainted with this fact, that year after year might be called the sister church, which was application has been made to pay the St. identically the same. The Learned Member Vincent's and Grenada loan, and that the applisaid he had nothing farther to observe at pre- cation was always granted without much opposent on the bill; but he hoped that it might go sition. He must acknowledge that it appeared through a committee after the recess, as it to him that the longer the planters had our possibly may be better regulated in a com- money, the period for repaying it was farther mittee than on a first reading.-If, on the removed. It was his opinion, that the money perusal of the bill, the House, should express might have been employed much better than their satisfaction, he should be happy that he sending it to the most vulnerable part of the had been the means of rendering an effectual world; indeed the late attacks which have service to a large and valuable body of gentle-been made on the West India islands, as well men, who have been much disturbed within these few years, by the letter of an old act of Parliament. But if the bill should be found, by the good sense of the House, not to answer the intended purpose, he should be one of the first to relinquish it. He however hoped, that it would be found calculated to answer every purpose for which it was designed; therefore he should move for leave to bring in a bill for preventing spiritual persons from holding farms, and to enforce their residence on their benefices. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, April 7. (See Minutes, p. 669.) [GRENADA LOAN.]-The report of the Grenada loan bill was taken into consideration, with the amendments, and ordered to be read a second time. Mr. WILBERFORCE rose, and entered into a long account of our first connexion with the West India planters: he observed, that whatever might have been the wisdom and policy of Government in giving their support to those planters at one period, he did not think it politic to continue it at the present time. When the measure was first discussed in the House, Parliament were informed, that the money applied for would be very soon repaid, and that the House would not be troubled with any future application for money; but every Member in the House must know that had not been the case: repeated applications I as their internal inquietude, do not promise much return for our assistance: it is therefore necessary that the House should consider the value of our money, and the many valuable uses to which it may be applied, before they vote it away for the support of an unprofitable connexion. He had long been of opinion, that property was not to be considered safe in that country, and it would be extremely impolitic on the part of Government, to lend large sums of money for foreign use: in his mind it would be a dangerous practice, and if often carried into effect, the nation would feel its bad consequences. It had been rumoured that this money was employed for various purposes foreign to its intended application, but he did not mean to say there was any truth in the report: the only object he had in view, was a proper application of the public money: he thought, that if our money was employed in our own country, it would answer the purpose of Government better than in giving it to the West India islands. If he could judge from the conduct of Government, it was their wish to get rid of the public money. These, he said, were his candid sentiments on the Grenada loan bill; and instead of advancing any addi tional sums of money to the West India planters, we ought to lose no time in getting back the money we have already advanced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was sure it must have been felt by the House, while his Hon. Friend was speaking, that a great part of his argument was addressed to them against the policy of the measure it |