so much reported coolness, but such as the boldest heart in this country could not look forward to without horror and dismay [Hear, hear].

Mr. Thornton said, that on the question being put, he felt it his duty, from the manner in which many other petitions had been worded, and from the opinion he entertained of the hon. member's judgment with whom he had divided, to vote against the petition, particularly as he was not aware it was his privilege to have the petion again read, to form a judgment thereupon. But as to the reflection cast on his conduct by either the noble lord or the hon. baronet, he was altogether indifferent to their praise or censure.

Lord Castlereagh complained of the efforts just made to mislead the country as to the disposition of the House respecting the petitions of the people.

Lord Cochrane called the noble lord to order. He had no right to fix imputations of any kind on an individual within the walls of that House.

Lord Castlereagh was proceeding to explain that he was not out of order, when he was again called to order.

The Speaker. If the noble lord wishes to explain on what grounds he conceives that he is not out of order, he has a right to be heard out.

Lord Castlereagh then proceeded to show, that the petition, the reception of which he had opposed, attributed to the House an unconstitutional use of its functions, when he was a third time called to order.

The Speaker. The noble lord has been called to order by another noble lord. The noble lord must confine himself to answer that noble lord as to the point of order.

Lord Castlereagh then vindicated the right which he had to complain of the conduct of the hon. baronet, who would have conveyed a gross insult to the House himself, if the chair had not made him feel, in a dignified manner, the impropriety of his language. But this was not the first time that the hon. baronet had gone so far. He seemed to have come to atone for the sins which he had committed, by his non-appearance in another place, and by putting a studied insult upon the House, to redeem himself from the reproaches which had elsewhere been cast upon him. His attack was on the House, and not on so humble an individual as himself (lord C.) But the chair had made him feel the +

gross impropriety of his conduct, and as far as he himself was personally concerned, he was perfectly satisfied.

Mr. Fremantle said, that he had voted for the reception of the last petition, because, though not approving of all its language, he did not conceive its general tenour to be more offensive than that of others which had passed without notice. But if he could suppose that such a vote involved him in any approbation of the opinions expressed by the hon. baronet, he should not have supported the petition. In opposition to the language of the hon. baronet, he did think that the general conduct of the House demanded the applause and not the reprobation of the people. He would venture to say, that there had been no general expression of opinion on the part of the people, which had not been listened to with due attention; and that therefore he acted properly in supporting, on every occasion, as far as lay in his power, the character of the House.

The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Peter Moore presented a petition from the city of Coventry, praying for a reform and a reduction of the public burthens. This petition had been agreed to at a very numerous meeting, at which the most perfect order and unanimity had prevailed. He regretted to state, that such had been the increase of the poorrates in that town, and so severely was their pressure felt, that there was hardly a house in which a distress had not been levied for their collection.

Mr. Butterworth likewise bore testimony to the enormous and almost intolerable burthen of the poor rates in Coventry. He was happy, however, not to have witnessed any symptoms of discontent, and confidently looked forward notwithstanding its present depression, to the speedy revival of trade and manufacturing industry in that populous city.

Mr. Lockhart could not help availing himself of this opportunity to express his conviction, that unless that branch of taxation which immediately affected the necessaries of life were greatly diminished, or funded property made, as it ought in justice to be made, equally contributory to the poor rates, they could not long continue to be paid. Their payment was, however, intimately connected with the whole system of public credit, and the stock-holder might be assured with the

due discharge of the interest of the national debt. There could not be a stronger example of the extreme pressure of the poor-rates than this complaint of their burthensome operations in the city of Coventry, one of the most richly endowed in the kingdom, and in which, there was a fund of 12,000l. per annum applicable to parochial relief. Unless something substantial was done, and the present system entirely altered, it was clear that we must proceed from bad to worse, and that the most alarming consequences would ensue. The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

PETITION FROM LEEDS RELATING TO THE USE OF MACHINERY.] Lord Lascelles said, he held in his hand a petition from a numerous body of people in Leeds, and the parts adjacent, who were clothdressers, and who complained that the introduction of machinery had thrown many of them out of employment. They prayed that some relief might be afforded them by the wisdom of parliament. He had explained to the petitioners themselves, that the question relative to machinery was a matter of deep consideration; nor did he flatter them that parliament could be able, considering the state of the woollen manufacture in other countries, to afford them any relief on this head. There was another prayer in the petition: these people entertained the impression, that if driven to emigrate to other countries, the existing laws threw obstructions in their way, as being manufacturers. The noble lord had told them, that considering the state of manufactures in other countries, neither could he give them much encouragement on this head: but at any rate their petition should be submitted to the consideration of parliament.

The Petition was then brought up and read, setting forth, "That the petitioners are employed in the dressing of woollen cloth, to which business they have served a long apprenticeship, and which heretofore enabled them to maintain themselves and their families, but which, in consequence of the extensive introduction of machinery into that department of the woollen trade, they are no longer able to do; they trust therefore for the indulgence of the House whilst they submit to their consideration the following facts; the petitioners beg leave to state, that, during the last session of parliament, they presented to the House, on behalf of themselves and their fellow (VOL. XXXV.)

workmen, a petition signed by 3,625 individuals, setting forth their grievances and praying for relief and redress, and they respectfully solicit the attention of the House to the allegations and prayer of that petition; it was stated in that petition that machinery for the dressing of woollen cloth had increased so rapidly within the last seven or eight years as to have produced very great distress among the persons employed in that department of the woollen manufacture, great numbers of them having been deprived of their accustomed employment and reduced to hopeles indigence and beg. gary; the petitioners have now to add to this statement the more specific information, that there was on the 17th of August 1816, totally out of employment 1,043 persons, in partial employment 1,380, in full employment 922; and on the 28th of October 1816 there were totally out of employment 1,166 persons, in partial employment 1,352, in full employment 860; and on the 3d day of February instant there were totally out of employment 1,170 persons, in partial employment 1,445, and in full employment 763, and the wages of those stated to be partially employed do not average more than from five to ten shillings a week; the petitioners also beg leave to state that it appears from the evidence taken before the House, that in the year 1806 there were only five gig mills, and not more than 100 pair of shears in the county of York wrought by machinery, but that the number of gig mills is now 72, and the number of shears is increased to 1,162, and that the consequence of this increase has been that great numbers of the petitioners and their fellow workmen have been reduced to absolute want; the petitioners also beg leave to submit to the House that they have a particular claim upon the attention of the legislature for protection and relief, inasmuch as they are prohibited by the laws from seeking em ployment in a foreign state; they would also submit to the House, that the pleas of necessity and expedience which have been pleaded in the behalf of the introduction of this species of machinery are unfounded, as there have always been a sufficient number of workmen to perform all the labour that was required: the petitioners also beg leave to state, that cloth is neither dressed better nor cheaper by machinery than by the old method of dressing it by the hand; on the contrary, the advantage in both these respects is decidedly in favour of dressing it by the hand, the large (Y)

posed. This branch of the ancient policy of the country required the serious consideration of the House. Nothing could be more wicked than attempts to destroy machinery, such as the country had lately witnessed; yet at the same time the feeling which existed against machinery must be a ground of formidable alarm; for it showed that, instead of now being, as it lately was, a source of wealth, it was the cause of the most severe distress to a great body of the people, because the hands thrown out of work by the introduction of machines in one branch could not now find employment in other lines. This was a serious evil, well deserving the serious attention of parliament; but he should not dilate on it at present, because he should soon have occasion to bring the distressed state of the manufacturers under the consideration of the House. He might here be allowed to explain, that in the observations which fell from him last night, he did not mean to advert to any seizures of persons that had been made under the authority of the secret committee.

sums expended in the erection and in the maintenance of these establishments more than counterbalancing any saving in the price of dressing. In respect also to the manner in which the cloth is dressed, the petitioners confidently affirm that the cloth finished by machinery possesses no advantage whatever over the cloth dressed by hand; they are aware that it will be asserted that the unrestrained use of machinery is necessary to enable this country sufficiently to compete with foreigners: the petitioners in reply to this objection, beg leave to observe, that the universal adoption of gig mills and shearing frames would not in the least tend to lower the price of cloth, and would not be the means of causing a single additional piece of cloth to be sold either at home or in the foreign market they would further observe, that though this species of machinery is thus impotent in promoting the prosperity of the woollen manufacture, it has been the fruitful source of much evil to the petitioners, and would, if carried further, be the means of depriving many thousands of persons of employment in the business to which they served a long and laborious apprenticeship, and indeed of all work whatever, as the present depressed state of trade precludes them from all chance of obtaining employment in any other business; the petitioners therefore hope, and humbly pray, that under these circumstances the House will be pleased to take their case into their immediate and serious consideration, and afford them such relief by restraining the use of this kind of machinery, or by such other means as may seem most meet to the wisdom of the House."

Mr. Brougham could not abstain from expressing his pleasure at seeing this petition brought forward so satisfactorily by the noble lord. This was the proper way in which the complaints of the people should be treated. In fact, all that had passed at public meetings showed that the people were still sound at heart; that they still looked up to that House as their constitutional safeguard, and the grand source from which they were to expect relief. With regard to the prayer of the present petition, it must be obvious, that to adopt any measures to check the use of machinery, was as impolitic as it would be impracticable; but it was surely very hard on the petitioners that any impediments should be thrown in their way so as to prevent them from bettering their situation by emigration, if they were so dis

Lord Castlereagh entirely coincided with the hon. and learned gentlemen respecting the proper manner in which the petition just read had been drawn up. He wished the House to be assured he was as anxious as any individual could be to preserve the right of petitioning, as one of the most valuable blessings of the constitution, and he was confident, if the people were left to draw up their petitions themselves, they would do it in the best and most respectful manner. It was the means made use of to delude them by imposing on them manufactured petitions that excited his disapprobation and disgust. It was an insult to an Englishman, to suppose him incapable of stating his own grievances in a plain respectful manner. The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

THE MARQUESS OF CAMDEN'S SINECURE.] General Fergusson said, that as all the petitions which had been presented to the House on the subject of reform prayed for an abolition of sinecures, he begged to ask if the report in circulation was true, which stated, that a noble marquess, one of the greatest sinecurists in the country, had, in consideration of the almost unanimous feeling of the nation, and the general distress, surrendered his sinecure?

Lord Castlereagh answered, that the report was well founded; that the marquess Camden had resigned all the emoluments and profits of the office he held, and only retained the regulated salary of 2,500. [Cheering]. The noble marquess had been for some time desirous of making this sacrifice, but as his office was in the nature of a vested right, and as he did not know what effect this surrender might have on others in a similar situation, he delayed till the meeting of parliament. Seeing, however, the example of retrenchment and sacrifice set in the highest quarter, he no longer hesitated, and now offered all the emoluments of his appoint

ment.

General Fergusson was exceedingly gratified with the intelligence now communicated to the House, and trusted in God that the example would be followed by others.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Wednesday, February 12.

ECONOMY AND REFORM.] Earl Grosvenor said, that he had waited in vain to see the ministers in their places, and there fore could not any longer defer bringing before their lordships subjects of great importance at all times, but particularly so at the present moment. He alluded to the topics contained in the various petitions that had reached parliament of late, and which were generally to the same effect, except in one respect, that relating to the extent of the reform of parliament; he found it absolutely necessary to take up a little of their lordships time, in detailing the nature of the notices he was about to give, as they were materially blended with the topics of their petitions, and as he was anxious, if possible, not to be misunderstood or misrepresented; not that he cared about misrepresentation himself, he had lived too long in the world, had known too much of political matters, not to be aware, that the people would occasionally misrepresent, when they had a pressing interest in so doing; he must therefore, in all such cases, trust to his conscious ness of his warm attachment to the genuine principles of the British constitution; but although indifferent to it himself, yet when he reflected that what he had to suggest was intimately connected with the best interests, prosperity, and happiness of the country, he could not but feel a due anxiety on the subject.

The petitions generally contained four points: retrenchment in the military, and also in the civil departments, the abolition of sinecures, and a reform in the representation in parliament. Their lordships might recollect, that he had called their attention to the former subjects in the course of the last session, and had endeavoured, without success, to persuade them that it would be more consonant to their dignity, to refer their consideration to a committee of their own, rather than to a committee of three gentlemen proposed by ministers, who were respectable certainly in themselves, but too closely connected with their politics, to be free from constitutional jealousy and suspicion on subjects, particularly of this description. From the conduct of ministers during last year, he certainly had not augured favourably of their economical intentions. When parliament met this year, he had hoped, as an earnest of their intentions really to please and satisfy the country, that their first act would have been the reduction of the office of the third secretary of state with all its train of expensive establishment; but that boon was denied the country. Then as to the first point in the petitions, the reduction of the army, how did that stand? Why, so far from any hopes being held out of that nature, it was stated by ministers on the first day of the session, that so far from seeing the necessity of any such reductions, from the appearance of disaffection, it might be necessary rather to increase than diminish that branch of our expenditure. However, in a few days, an alteration seemed to have taken place in the minds of the ministers; for a reduction had been suggested in another place to the amount of between 20 and 30,000 men. Whether this was a proper reduction or no, was a subject he would not now touch upon, but leave to be brought forward by those who had so ably and forcibly discussed it on a former occasion. But in regard to the alleged disaffection, he must say, he trusted and believed it would turn out to be very scanty indeed, and that the words of the Speech from the throne would be borne out, that the main body of the people of this country were perfectly sound and loyal.-In regard to the second point, that relating to the civil expenditure, from what he had heard on the subject, he thought he should have some proposal to make to their lordships in the course of the session; for, if he was rightly