412 PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. Sept. feffion of their copyholds, to them B But now, Sir, and indeed for many years paft, our copyhold eftates or villenage tenures are most of them become as free as any other fort of tenure. The fervices are in moft manors converted into a certain quitrent, the fine is either become cer- C tain by the custom of the manor, or is made certain by law, for the rule I think is, that it must not exceed two years rent; and the poffeffor is in every respect deemed as much a freeman as any freeholder in the kingdom: Nay, it is by exprefs fta- D tute allowed as a qualification for a gentleman's being a member of this house; for a copyhold of 300l. a year above all deductions intitles a gentleman to fit in this houfe as the reprefentative of a city, borough, or cinque-port; and if he has 600l. a year copyhold eftate, he may be chofen and fit here as knight of a fhire. To this let me add, Šir, that copyholders are by exprefs ftatute declared to be liberi et legales homines; for in the act of the 4th and 5th of William and Mary for regu- F fating juries, the writ prefcribed by that act to be fent to the sheriff for returning a jury is in thefe words, Quod venire facias coram nobis, &c. duodecim liberos et legales hominesand the fame act directs, that all jurors to be afterwards returned by the fheriff fhall have within the faine county 10l. a year at leaft, above reprizes, of freehold or copyhold lands, or of lands in ancient demefae. And as to the laft men E G tioned fort of lands, I muft obferve, that tho' tenants in ancient demeine are generally copyholders, yet by our lawyers they are faid to have a freehold, and in fome refpects are treated as fuch; for if the manor be in the hands of a fubject, and any of these tenants be convicted of felony, the king fhall have his year and day in his lands thereby efcheated to the lord of the manor, in the fame way as he has in a freeholder's lands which efcheat to the lord of the manor within which they lie, upon the freeholder's being guilty of felony; whereas in all other forts of copyhold lands, the king has no year and day, but the lands efcheat directly to the lord of the manor, upon the copyholder's being guilty of felony. Now, Sir, I must think it a little prepofterous, that landholders, who by our lawyers are faid to have a freehold, and in fome refpects are by law treated as if they had; who by exprefs act of parliament are called legal freemen; and who by exprefs act of parliament may have a feat in this houfe, nay, who may be chofen to reprefent a county, fhall not have a right to vote at any county election ; therefore I fhould not think it very extraordinary, if the queftion upon the Hon. gentleman's motion fhould be agreed to, which, I believe, would be contrary to his expectation; and I mu think, that it would be of advantage, rather than of prejudice to our conftitution, as liberty, like a pyramid, must always ftand the firmer, the more you increase its bafe; and I have always heard it reprefented as one of the beauties of our conftitution, that every freeman in the kingdom has a fhare in our legiflature, either by himself or his reprefentative; whereas, at prefent our copyholders, who are a very great and numerous body of men, have no fhare in the legiflature of their country. However, 1755. PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. 413 A However, Sir, tho' at first view I has been fully and maturely conûam of opinion, that our agreeing to dered, and the feveral forts of copythe question upon this motion, would holders inquired into; for this is a add ftrength to our conftitution, and branch of learning which I muft detho' I think that it would be but juf- clare myfelf to be very ignorant of, tice to admit that body of men to a and I believe there are many genshare in our legislature, as every rea- tlemen here prefent who are in the fon for excluding them has long ago fame fituation. I have faid, Sir, if ceafed, yet I cannot fay that I have it should be thought proper to deterconfidered the point fo fully as to be mine this queftion by a vote of this able to pafs a final judgment upon houfe; because I really think it it; and as there is no neceflity for a ought to be determined in a more foprefent decifion, I fhall be for putting lemn and deliberate manner: If all it off by the previous queftion; for I B copyholders, or any fort of copydo not think there is the leaft ground holders, are to be declared to have a for the pretence, that until we deter- right to vote at county elections, I mine this point the fheriffs will have concur in opinion with the Hon. genan arbitrary power over every county tleman who spoke laft, that it ought election; because it may not happen to be done by a law for that purpose; once in an age that the copyholders because I think it would be necessary of any county can throw a majority C to alter the oath now appointed by upon either fide at an election, as law to be taken by the voters at fuch they as well as the freeholders will elections for whatever fome of my generally divide, and if the theriff friends may think, I must be of opiadmits copyholders of one fide, he nion, that it is taking a jefuitical li muft admit them of the other. I berty with the religious ceremony of believe no county was ever more an oath, in any copyholder who equally divided than the county of D votes in right of his copyhold, to Oxford at the laft election; and yet take the oath now appointed by law it is evident, that the candidates in to be taken; and befides, if you whofe favour we have determined, give them a right to vote for knights had a majority of legal votes with- of the fhire, you ought certainly to out reckoning the customary free- give them a right to vote for coroholders, as they were called, who ners, verdurers, and at every other voted for them at that election; and E fort of county election; and I must fuch an equal divifion may not again think, that it would be neceffary at happen in any county in England for the fame time to make them members this hundred years to come. There- of the county court; for the electing fore our delaying to determine this of knights of the fhire, coroners, point can never probably add to the and verdurers, is a part of the bufipower of the sheriff at any future nefs of that court; and how can a county election. man vote at any of these elections who is no member of that court, nor has any right to appear there? But none of these things can be done by a vote of this houfe; and therefore I must think it would be very improper to have the queftion upon this motion pafs in the affirmative. F But now fuppofe, Sir, that this were a danger to be apprehended, is there any occafion to prevent it by a vote of this feffion? We have in all probability five or fix feffions more to fit before there may be any new general election; and if it should be G thought proper to determine this point by a vote, we may do it next feffion, or in fome future feffion of this parliament, after the queftion On the other hand, Sir, if all copyholders, without diftinction, are to be excluded from a right of voting at any county election in England or Wales, 414 PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. Sept. Wales, I must likewife think, that caufe I think it would be confonant this cannot be properly done by a to what the legiflature has already vote of this houfe; because it is done with respect to copyholders; certain, that in fome counties in and because I look upon fuch copyEngland, and in many, as I am holders to be as much freemen as told, in Wales, fome fort of copy- any freeholder who has granted a holders are in poffeffion of a right, A rent charge out of his eftate, yet no or at least a cuftom, to vote for objection could be made against the knights of the fhire, and to take vote of fuch a freeholder, if his this right from them by a vote of eftate amounted to 40s. a year over this house, would be the fame with and above what was to go out of it turning a man out of his right with- for the payment of that rent. And out hearing what he has to fay in indeed, if a lord agrees to accept of fupport of it, which would not be B a certain rent in lieu of all fervices, confiftent with our con'titution, nor it feems to me to be a fort of inin my opinion with common juftice. franchifement of the eftate, as the Whereas, if you put this matter off law has long fince given the inheritill next feflion, and then order in a tance to the copyholder; for the bill for the purpofe, every man will tenant can no longer be properly have an opportunity to be heard faid to hold by villenage tenure; against the bill if he pleafes, or to C and it is certain, that this was of old apply for an exception with regard the method of infranchifing a boto himself and all fuch as are in the rough; for most of our boroughs fame circumstances. Now, Sir, as were originally in villenage, that is the motion under our prefent confi- to fay, the lord could make them pay deration is conceived, if the question and perform what rents, duties, and fhould be put upon it, and a nega- fervices he pleafed, which he coltive put upon that question, I think D lected by his own officers, but when it would imply an exclufion of all he granted to the inhabitants their forts of copyholders from a right of markets, fairs, and other duties, voting at any county election, either and agreed to accept of a certain in England or Wales; for if a copy- rent, the borough then became a holder, who has not in his copy the free borough, and their tenure was words, at the will of the lord, has no longer deemed a villenage tenure, no fuch right, I am fure, no fort of E but a free burgage. copyholder can be fuppofed to have any fuch right; and as I think, that fuch a general declaration by a vote of this houfe would be inconfiftent with common juftice as well as with Our conftitution, I cannot agree to it. Therefore I hope, Sir, that our coming to any determination in the matter now before us, will be put off by the previous queftion, and if in the next feffion a proper bill fhould be brought in for declaring, that all copyholders, who hold at a certain fine by the cuftom of the manor, G and at a certain rent in lieu of all fervices, fhall from thenceforth be deemed freeholders in every refpect, I believe, I fhould agree to it, be For these reafons I fay, Sir, I believe, I fhould be for having fuch a bill paffed into a law; for fo far as I can judge at prefent, I do not think it could any way tend to the prejudice of the conftitution, or that F it could give the other house any. dangerous influence over the elections of the members of this; for fuch copyholders would be as independent as the freeholders now are of the lord of the manor to which they belong, and would vote as freely at every election; nor have we, I think, any reafon to fear, that the members of the other houfe will ever become poffeffed of too large a fhare of the landed property of this kingdom, 1755. PROCEEDINGS of the kingdom, as long as they have liberty to fell or difpofe of their eftates; for whilst they have this liberty, we may from experience depend upon it, that generally fpeaking, as much of their landed property will be again thrown into the hands of the commons by the indolence and extravagance of the heir, as was drawn out by the vigilance and parfimony of the ancestor. But as thefe things cannot come properly under our confideration until fuch a bill as I have mentioned be brought in, I fhall B now conclude with moving for the previous question. Upon this Sp. Caffius ftood up, I Mr. Prefident, POLITICAL CLUB, &c. 415 popular affemblies, he fays, Eligun tur in iifdem conciliis et principes, qu jura per pagos vicofque reddunt. Centeni fingulis ex plebe comites, confilium fimul et auctoritas adfunt. From hence, I think, we muft conclude, A that our witenagemotes originally confifted of the great officers chofen by the witenagemote, and the chief officers chofen by the people in each of the large diftricts, or what we now call fhires; confequently, that a great, probably the greatcft number of its members were chofen by and reprefented the people. And fuch a regard had thofe reprefentatives to the voice of their conftituents, that and they not only allowed all fuch of them as pleased to be prefent at their confultations, but refufed to agree C to any propofal if it appeared to be difagreeable to the people then attending Nay, fo great was their regard for the voice of the people, that in other countries as well as this, their affemblies were often held in fome open field, that a greater number of the people might be prefent, as feems to be evident from many ancient records; for the dignity of thofe affemblies did not confift in the fecrecy, but in the decency of their debates, and the wifdom of their refolutions. E SHALL agree with the Hon. gentleman who spoke laft, that it is a difpute of no importance, whether our parliaments, or, as they were anciently called, our witenagemotes, always confifted of two D houses, as they do now, and always have done, fince the reign of Henry the First, or at least fince the 18th of the reign of his fon Edward the Firft; but, I believe, that gentleman will not deny, and indeed it cannot be denied by any gentleman who has dipped ever fo little into our ancient hiftory, that originally among the Saxons all the great officers, both civil and military, were chofen by the people in their feveral diftricts, or by the witenagemote itfelf, with the approbation of the F king; for this may be deduced, not only from our own hiftories, but alio from what Tacitus fays of the ancient Germans; for he tells us, that the king of each tribe was fo by his birth, but their general or leader in war was chofen by the people on account of his military character. Reges ex nobilitate, duces ex virtute fumunt, are his words; and after giving us an account of their I fhall indeed grant, Sir, that this original form of government did not long continue without interruption; for either by the people's continuing the fame office long in the fame family, or by the ufurpations even of the Saxon kings, many of thefe offices became hereditary, or came to be veed in the crown, and grantable by the fovereign, fometimes with, and fometimes without the confent of the witenagemote. However, many of them continued even after the conqueft, and fome of them, Gefpecially in our cities and great boroughs, to this day continue to be in the hands, and at the election of the people. Therefore from the time of the conquest, it is probable, that 416 PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. Sept. that the people in general had no share in likewife prefume, that they brought from home with them only as much provifions as might ferve till they arrived in the enemy's country, from which time they depended for their daily support upon their plunder; and that all the reward expected either by officer or foldier was a share of the booty, or of the lands they should conquer; for as they came here to a cultivated country, and in fearch of a new habitation, we may fuppofe that every officer and foldier expected some fort of property in the conquered lands he was to have for his fhare, which indeed was contrary to their old custom in Germany, where Cæfar tells us they had no fixt property in any lands for above a year. Thus, Sir, we may most reasonably fuppofe the Saxon armies were conftituted: Thefe we may fuppofe were the expectations both of the officers and foldi. ers when they arrived in this country; and our own hiftories and records will fhew us how their expectations were anCfwered. For this purpose I muft obferve, that long before the reign of Alfred, the whole kingdom was divided into thires, manors, and hydes, which words were all brought in by the Saxons, because we find them in all our hiftories presently after their fettlement here, and none of them before that time; therefore I must fuppofe, that when a Saxon army fubdued any part of the country, they divided it among the chief princes, allowing to each a fhare in proportion to the number of his tribe, and this share was what was afterwards called a fhire. Then each of thefe princes divided his fhare amongst the inferior princes of his tribe, each of whofe fhares was called a manor; and each of these princes again divided his fhare amongst the common foldiers of his family, allowing to each man as much as was fufficient for maintaining him and his family, and this portion of land was called a hyde. From hence it came that fhires, manors, and hydes of land were very different as to their extent; for the extent of fhires and manors was in proF portion not only to the goodness of the land, but to the number of men the prince had under his command; and the hyde was in proportion to the goodness of the land. However, it is certain, that even in the richest land a hyde was of confi derable extent, becaufe William the Conqueror impofed a tax of 6s. upon every hyde of land throughout the kingdom, which was equal to a tax of 61. now; for the ufual price of wheat was then about Is. a quarter, as we may judge from the act of the 51ft of Henry the third, for regulating the price of bread, Now, Sir, to difcover with as much probability as we can who were the voters at our first county elections, we must confider how the Saxon armies by whom this country was first fubdued were compofed, because from thence we may guess how the country they conquered was divided among them. It is certain, Ithink, that the Saxon armies were not divided into regiments or batallions, confifting each of a certain number of foldiers in daily pay, and commanded by officers appointed by the chief general; becaufe D they had no money for anfwering fuch daily pay, and because Tacitus has told us, that the Germans engaged in battle by their tribes or families: Quodque præcipuum fortitudinis incitamentum eft, non cafus, nec fortuita conglobatis turmam aut cuneum facit, fed familiæ et propinquitates, et -And Cæfar has told E proximo pignora :—— us, that even in time of peace they lived together by tribes or families: Sed magif tratus ac principes, in annos fingulos, gentibus cognationibufque bominum, qui una coicrunt, quantum et quo in loco vifum eft, agri attribuunt.--Therefore we must prefume, that the Saxon armies confifted of a number of tribes commanded by their respective princes, and all confederated together under the command of the prince who, they had agreed fhould be their chief Jeader or general; that each tribe again confifted of a number of families, each under the command of an inferior prince; and fubject to the command of the prince of the tribe; and lastly, that each family confifted of a number of common foldi- G ers; confequently the number of each tribe and family muft bave been uncertain, confifting only of fuch as the prince could get to follow him from his own -tribe or family in Germany. We may which |