think that ministers are entitled from it to the thanks of their country. est of our own country, by not forgetting that other countries have interests and honour also, which they are equally bound to assert. I know that those who speak from this side of the House must be careful how they express themselves, to guard against the misrepresentations of having spoken against ourselves; but I never can forget the good will which we owe to the whole human race, and the more so from the high station in which the Divine Providence has placed us. I agree to the basis of the convention as expressed by the noble secretary of state, which ought indeed to be the principle to govern every settlement of disputes. Whether a controversy be between individuals, or between contending nations, we should always seek to secure, if possible, the interests and reputation of both; because it is the only mode by which, in the end, they can be amicably satisfied. My professional life has often placed me in the character of a mediator, and I have always endeavoured to obtain this object as the only one which led to lasting reconciliation, and I rejoice to see it as the foundation of the arrangement which has been made. Without it, perhaps, we could not have had a peace so likely to continue, and which I verily believe will be lasting if it be pursued as it was made, in the spirit of peace. I wish France and every other nation to see that our divisions are at an end. We have made many sacrifices in the course of the late contest, and we must make many more to redeem our country from the consequences of a war, the continuance of which might have been fatal to it and to the security of the whole civilized world. I hope, Sir, that ministers will now pursue towards their fellow-subjects the same liberal policy which, upon this occasion, they have shown towards adversaries. This is still wanting-I am now looking forwards and confidently maintain that if the people of Great Britain and Ireland were governed according to the spirit of our laws mildly administered, they would, to use again the language of Mr. Burke, for ever cling and grapple to you, and nothing could tear them from their allegiance. Nothing indeed, can estrange them from our invaluable constitution but shutting them out from its benefits. These are my sentiments, and I speak them from the bottom of my heart. To conclude, Sir, to say that I approve of this convention would be to speak more coldly than I feel because I gen Sir W. Scott said, that the learned tleman, had uttered sentiments of which he entirely approved. It was his intention to have gone through the several heads of the subject, had not that task been performed already with such ability by his noble friend. As to the convention, as far as his understanding went, the essential rights of the country were to be supported by it; and it was, at the same time, perfectly adequate to every fair demand of every neutral country. The surrenders we had made also, he thought, were made with perfect propriety. The right of search had been preserved to us. With respect to privateers, a popular clamour seemed to have been raised against them very undeservedly; for there were points in which the utility of that species of warfare was manifest. He approved, however, of the modification with respect to them in the present convention. Upon the right of search, he took occasion to observe, that it was one to which all the rest were subordinate, for it was one without which all the rest were almost use less; it was therefore one of the pillars of our maritime strength. This was pre served in all its essential vigour by this convention. The subordinate points might be subject to critical observation, but the general character of them was perfectly intelligible. Under these circumstances, he gave his entire approbation to the whole of the convention, as a measure brought about by the valour of our arms, and the wisdom of our councils, and which secured the most important, while it invaded none of the rights of this country. Mr. Tierney said: I rise to express my approbation of the convention. The present ministers, when they came into office, pledged themselves to use their honest endeavours to obtain peace, and to use their power with justice and moderation. They have fulfilled their pledge, and I feel myself bound to give them an honest support. I am sensible of the difficulties under which the country labours, but I see no cause for despair. I think I see a ray of hope, and I trust I shall not be disappointed. I trust that ministers are de termined to act upon the only system by which the nation, after its struggles and sacrifices can be restored to its former greatness. With these sentiments, I shall not only give them no opposition, but contribute every exertion of my humble Debate on Sir W. Pulteney's Motion for Committee on the Trade between India and Europe.] Nov. 25. Sir W. Pulteney rose to make his promised motion. He began by observing that a variety of documents had last session been laid upon the table with regard to the trade between England and India, and his object was, that these should now be fully considered. The grand question which arose out of them was, whether British merchants were to receive such facilities as to enable them to enter into a competition with foreigners in a vast branch of commerce? The question always appeared to him to be of the first magnitude, and it rose upon him in importance the more he considered it. Many objections had been made to the proposed regulations; these he had carefully weighed, and the effect they had taken upon him was, to impress upon his mind a more lively sense of the necessity of calling for the interference of the legislature. In 1793, when the charter of the company was renewed, various clauses were introduced into the act in favour of private trade. From the manœuvres of the directors, however, these were productive of no good effect, and the intentions of the legislature were completely frustrated. From the increased difficulties thus experienced by individual traders, many representations were made, and at last a committee was appointed to take the whole subject fully into consideration. A report was by-and-by pub. lished, approving, without qualification, of the conduct of the Directors. By a court of proprietors this report was afterwards confirmed. It was for an account of these proceedings that he had moved last ses In longer. When the East India company was first established, at the end of the seventeenth century, the object of the legislature was two-fold. 1. By the sale of the monopoly to raise a sum of money, the grant of exclusive privileges in trade being in those days an expedient for filling the treasury, often resorted to by the crown. 2. A second consideration was, that a trade so distant could not be carried on by individuals, but only by a jointstock company. It was therefore thought that the wants of government might at once be supplied, and a benefit conferred on the commerce of the company. the reign of queen Anne the monopoly was again sold, and a second company was formed. As they did not go on very well separate, a union between them was effected, and for this reason the present company was styled the "United Company of Merchants trading to the East Indies." The monopoly was long preserved with great rigour. It was scarcely possible for individuals to trade by themselves, but every British subject was prohibited under severe penalties from having any concern with a foreign commercial company trading to the East. For a little while our East India company went on very well, but then they were only merchants. Become soon after victors and sovereigns their affairs went to ruin. In fifteen years after their first territorial acquisition, their profits had not only entirely ceased, but their losses were so great, that for a rupee, worth 28. they could get no more than 1s. 3d. Indeed, this was not at all matter of surprise. The character of traders and sovereigns was inconsistent, and their union had never failed to prove ruinous to the mercantile concerns of these countinghouse kings, and to make their unhappy subjects suffer under all the evils of opIt was then too late to discuss pression and misrule. On the ground of them, but he had given notice of his in- the complete incapacity of the court of tention to bring the subject before the the directors, a bill was brought into parHouse as soon as parliament should again liament in 1783, to take all power and be assembled. That notice he had re- management out of their hands. I opposed newed, and it was not his fault that he this bill because I considered it dangerous had been so long in fulfilling his promise. and unconstitutional. It went to estabHe was told that a compromise was likely lish a board with vast authority and into take place, and he thought it right to fluence, independent of the crown, to erect see whether justice could be done with an imperium in imperio. After it had out an act of the legislature. He under- passed this House, and had been read stood that terms had been offered by the twice in the Lords, it was happily court of Directors, but these were so un- thrown out. Another corrective was then reasonable, so inadequate to the end pro-resorted to, and a board of commissioners posed, that he could remain silent no was appointed, which in various ways sion. hint even at a bad consequence, but sent express orders that this might never be done again. The next year, therefore, the governor-general refused permission for the sailing of any home-built ship; but the year after he again found it necessary to employ a considerable number. A strong letter was in consequence wrote out to his lordship. By way of compliance with his representations, they propose some advantages to the private trade; but these concessions were insidious, and would have left them at liberty to hamper it at pleasure. I think it is now time to expose their evasions, and to bring the question fairly to issue before a competent tribunal. was to check and control the court of directors. No dispatches were allowed to be sent to any of the presidencies till they had first been communicated to the board, and the commissioners received great power over the territorial revenue and the political concerns of the dominions in India. To interfere with matters of trade they received no power, any farther than to see that the mercantile schemes of the directors did not interfere with the well-being of the Indian empire. Things continued in this situation till 1793, when the charter was to be renewed. Before this, it had been perceived, that the revenues must fail if native industry were not more encouraged. Foreigners were therefore allowed to trade on the The trade of the East India company same terms with the company themselves. consists of two branches; that to China, The jealousy of British merchants, how- where they are mere merchants; and that ever, still remained. Those who had to India where, they are sovereigns. The made fortunes in India, having thus no first is a profitable, the second a losing means of remitting them to England, took trade. The sales are therefore always the benefit of the trade allowed to the confounded. In 1800, they amounted French, Danes, Swedes, and Americans. together to above seven millions. Of that Immense profits were thus made by there was re-exported 4,700,000l., and of foreigners; and they, from thus being the latter sum there was 2,300,000l. from sure of a cargo home, were enabled to private trade, one half of the whole, reexport to India with great advantage, and exported. It is allowed, that the foreign in many instances to undersell the com- trade to India amounts to 1,500,000l. I pany. In 1793 the bad policy of this believe it to be a great deal more. Ships, system began to be perceived, and many supposed under ballast, have been disclauses were introduced to give facility to covered to be richly laden; and various the private trade. Whoever reads the expedients are used to disguise the act must perceive the extreme jealousy amount of it. Of what consequence then, which the legislature entertained of the Sir, is the question that we are discussdesigns of the directors. It was well ing? To this trade, no bounds can be known, that the directors would use their set: a few years back, Indigo was not utmost endeavours to obstruct this trade; known as an article of commerce between but sufficient guards, it was thought, were the two countries; and, in 1800, we im introduced to protect it in its new immu- ported Indigo to the value of a million nities. The directors, nevertheless, have sterling. The importation of cotton and obstructed it materially, and, in as far as various other commodities has likewise in them lay, frustrated the intentions of been wonderfully increased; and it is parliament. The governors of India uni- never to be forgotten, that these are raw formly complained of their conduct, and materials to exercise our own ingenuity recommended a more liberal system. Sir and employ our own industry. The adJohn Shore, Mr. Hastings, lord Corn-vantages to be derived from this trade, wallis; in short, there is not a single ex- are great to a degree, though not yet unception. To these remonstrances the derstood; and shall they all be forfeited directors obstinately refused to listen, and from the caprice or illiberality of the distill declared war against private trade, rectors? We do not seek to deal in one unless it was carried on in a way which article in which they deal themselves. It prevented all competition with foreigners. is, indeed, strange, that such a question In 1798, marquis Wellesley found it ab- should ever have been stirred. All this solutely necessary to send home the pro-art is used to prevent us from coming duce of India in India-built ships. The into competition, not with the, comnumber that arrived was very great, yet it pany, but with foreigners. They say, never once was pretended that the smallest you must be under our control, you injury had ensued. The directors did not must employ the ships we send out to you, you must submit to many manifest | upon a change of the direction, they were disadvantages, not for our sake, not for supported by the six new members who the good of the commonwealth, but lest came in, making in all an unanimous you should endanger the mercantile gains body of the thirty persons at the head of of France and America. It is said, affairs. The proprietors approved of the however, that the company's sales abroad report by a large majority, and a ballot might be injured. But how can this ever served only to show more unequivocally be the case when individual traders never the ascendancy of the directors. Although expose the same articles to sale? The there was no secret history in all this, it company's sales will be injured, to be could by no means be decisive. I have sure, by thus labouring to enable fo- authority to quote against authority. On reigners to import the same articles with my side of the question, besides all the every advantage. But British subjects governors general for the last twenty constitute the only objects of their jea- years, I have the late president of the lousy. Rather than allow India built ships board of control. Have these illustrious to come home, they will be at a great characters had no opportunity to inquire expense, and send out ships from England. into the affairs of India? or have they laid To pretend that they thus place the pri- down a resolution to overset the company, vate trader on an equally fair footing, is and to dissolve our empire in the East? I puerile. According to this plan, the cargo dare say the directors think they are in must be provided long before; the time the right; but I will now show how they of the ship's arrival is uncertain; when come to think themselves in the right. she may be allowed to be loaded is uncer- When the company was first established, tain; and it is still more uncertain when like the Bank of England, and other jointshe may be dispatched. Every thing is stock companies, the directors were cramped by arbitrary regulations. But chosen by those who held a small sum of India shipping may be had cheaper! stock, and the election was annual. The Whether cheaper or not appears to me of qualification to vote was then only 500l. consequence-it has so many ad. It was thought that the proprietors intervantages in other respects. The goods are fered too much, and the sum was raised provided when the ship is ready; they are to 1,000l. A bill was then brought in to immediately put on board, and the ship change the annual elections, and it was sets sail with them the moment she is fully enacted that six should go out in rotation loaded. Doconsider, Sir, what the company yearly; so that, when once elected, a propose to do. How can they know what member remained in office for four years, goods are to be sent home? How can and had great facilities given him in they proportion the supply of shipping to naming his successor. The indiscreet inthe demand? Have they not, to their terference of the proprietors was preventutmost wish, the power of cramping the ed, to be sure; but it often happens that, speculations of the merchants? Let them in attempting to mend one evil, you occaconsider the danger they run, of losing sion others of equal consequence. It is the trade of India altogether. It is a well clear, that ever since the directors have known fact, that in 1793 there were sold been self-created, there is but one solitary in L'Orient alone India goods to the value instance of a gentleman being brought of 1,200,000%. sterling. How great is the into the direction who was not on the trade of France alone, then! and how house-list. They are now a permanent great must be the total of the trade of fixed body, and never talk but of going foreigners, when the extent of the deal-out or coming in by rotation. The conings with India are considered of-Lisbon, America, and the states in the north! I am by no means of opinion that foreigners should be excluded. By these means alone the revenues can be kept up. All I ask is, that these advantages should not be granted to foreigners exclusively. little That a proposition so clear should be received like this must indeed confound a stranger. Not only the twenty-four directors who joined in the report were decidedly hostile to the plan proposed: but, stitution is completely altered; there is now a very powerful, and dangerous aristocracy. How is it supported? I do not blame these gentlemen. The love of power is natural, and no one who has tasted its sweets will willingly descend into a private station. The blame lies with those who allow them to gratify this thirst for domination; and that they are allowed, is indeed much to be regretted. Of all governments, aristocracy is the most tyrannical, oppressive, and odious. I abhor it still more than democracy. I asked how these men kept themselves in power? They have the management of an immense revenue, they have an immense patronage, and ought to have it. I opposed bestowing it on a board of commissioners, and I think it could not be possessed safely by the crown. But this is not all. They have the buying of an immense quantity of goods for India: they have the hiring of vessels to transport them; so that their influence is considerable over the manufacturing, and unbounded over the shipping interest. All who furnish ships' stores they can favour. When a man's ship is taken up, they tell him, you will take your ropes from such a person, your sails from another whom we point out, and your anchors from a third. As a proof of all this, I ask, whether many who hear me have not heard it said, "Oh, he is a great man; he is sure to do well; he has a vote at the India House." The directors do tell the truth when they say that, by the encouragement of private trade, the present constitution of the company would be overturned; and when they state this, they state the true and the sole ground of their opposition. The private traders would get rich, their influence would increase, the dependance of the proprietors on the directors would be greatly diminished, and the aristocracy would tumble to the ground. Here is a very good ground for the opposition of the court of directors; but here is nothing which in any degree affects the question itself. I have stated the reason which actuates the breasts of the directors; I shall now state the reasons which they assign to others. I shall refer to the report, which was drawn up by a very honourable and upright man. I never did read a paper drawn up with more address, or that showed a greater talent at making the worst appear the better reason. While one reads, all appears right, and we unequivocally approve the conduct of the directors; but the moment we lay down the book, and ask ourselves what arguments have been urged against allowing us the full benefit of our Indian possessions, we [are obliged to confess, None, but that you would thus endanger the power of the court of directors: 1. The first ostensible argument is, that if these privileges were granted, British capital would leave the country. But the com pany themselves are about to raise two millions, and if there is any danger from that sum being exported, it is fully as great when it is exported by the company. Sir, I deny that any danger exists. When capital leaves the country and is lost, it is a bad thing; but if it return with a profit, this is the best way it could be employed. The money sent to India will not begiven in presents to the Hindoos. It will be employed in buying raw materials to be brought to England, and will thus encou rage industry at home and abroad, and add to the strength of the empire. These gentlemen tell us, this capital might have been employed more profitably. So they think they can judge better of this matter than the owners of this capital. They are to be thanked for their friendly solicitude; but they will probably find that their own affairs will demand all their attention. 2. We have next set before us the terrors of colonization. Upon this point they dwell at great length and with great complacency. But in telling us that the ruin of the country would be the inevitable consequence of any relaxation, they surely forget the nature of the Indian govern. ment. At present no one can go to India without the consent of the aristocracy; and when he is there, the aristocracy can put him on board a ship and send him home as soon as they have a mind. Without leave of the government, no one can go beyond a few miles from Calcutta. By a fundamental law, no European is capa ble of holding lands in any part of the company's possessions. Between India and America no analogy can be drawn,' although the separation of that country had been necessary, instead of occasioned by mismanagement. In America the climate resembled that of England, and the constitution of government was almost exactly the same. Above all, America was uninhabited, and boundless tracks of fertile land were presented to the industry of the planter. India is one of the most populous countries on the globe, and every inch of ground is appropriated. The climate is so fatal, that it is almost impossible for a European to remain in it alive a few years; the form of government must be arbitrary, and may be tyrannical. And this is the spot, which, after having be come a flourishing colony by draining the mother country of men and money, will at length break off all connexion with us, and become a formidable rival! 3. But great numbers. of Lascars would be |