notwithstanding any previous act of bankruptcy. This seemed to be the only remedy fairly applicable to that part of the law, namely, that all honest debts contracted, all payments made, all conveyances and engagements entered into by the bankrupt, should be good and valid, notwithstanding any previous act of bankrupt cy, provided the person or persons entering into such contracts or lending such money to the bankrupt, should have no notice of such act of bankruptcy, or knowledge of the bankrupt's insolvency. He proposed toc, that as to such debts, the bankrupt's certificate should be a protection, as complete as with regard to any debts claimed under the commission Another object of the bill he meant to bring forward would be, that no commission of bankruptcy should be superseded in consequence of previous acts of bankruptcy done by the bankrupt: and also, that debts contract able until after the commission was taken out, should be provable under the commission, whether they were simple debts or those for which securities were given. The learned gent. concluded with observ ing, that these were the only objects which the bill he proposed to bring forward had in view.--Leave was accordingly given to bring in the bill. the course of his own experience, he had known an instance in which a first, second, and even a third commission had been set aside in this way. In that instance, as no doubt in others, the object was to defeat the proceedings taken against the bankrupt, by whom, with that intention, the anterior acts of bankruptcy were kept back. It then in addition to the injuries thus arising to the bankrupts, the assignees and the creditors, one considered the enormous expence of actions depending on the committal of acts of bankruptcy, the amount of the bankrupt's property dissipated in such actions, and with no other object in general than mere litigation, it was impossible not to feel astonished that the law should have been suffered to remain so long in its present state. Three modes were suggested, the learned gent. stated, of remedying the evils complained of: the first was, entirely to abolish one of the great principles of the presented by the bankrupt, which were not pay bankrupt laws, namely, that no man should be considered a bankrupt until the time at which the commission should be taken out. But various objections offered against this suggestion arising out of the expedients notoriously resorted to by bankrupts fraudulently disposed. Another provision was recommended, that no commission should be granted unless the act of bankruptcy alleged by the petitioning creditor had taken place a certain time before the commission, according to the advice of some, three or six months. But to this recommendation he knew of several objections, which urged at least the propriety of a much greater distance of time. When it was considered how reluctantly creditors in general took out a commission of bankruptcy, how frequently they granted a deed of trust in order to avoid bringing expence and trouble upon themselves, or disgrace and ruin upon the bankrupt, and when it was recollected that those deeds were often protracted much longer than six months, he trusted the house would feel that no such period ought to be fixed. But although great inconvenience and injustice might result from such an arrangement, still the law was not to be left as it stood. It ap. peared to him, that without fixing any period upon this point, bona fide debts contracted by the bankrupt at any time before the commission, should be recoverable from the effects of the bankrupt, [IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.] Sir J. Newport brought in this bill, and moved that it be read a first time. Mr. Bagwell thanked the right hon. baronet for his perseverance in this bill, but apprehended there was a point or two in which they might have some difference of opinion. As the law was already, grand juries had the power to raise 4001. on counties, and 2001. on cities; the consequence of which was, that in those counties which had cities, there were houses of industry, supported by the aggregate sum; but, in those counties which had no cities, the contrary was the case; and he, therefore, hoped, that power would be given to the grand juries of the latter, to make up that deficiency, as many of the counties so situated in Ireland, possessed more opulence than some of those which had cities. From the time that this assessment of 4001. upon counties was first granted for the poor, it had never been increased, although for other purposes, rates had been made to the amount of 30,0001. though the people, themselves were so anxious to have provision made for the poor, that houses were built by private subscriptions, rising in a gradation of from one to ICO guineas. It should be remembered, that there were no poor Jaws in Ireland, and he hoped it would remain so, for the country was too poor to support the extravagance of them. the object of which was professed to be humane and charitable, he must object to all new and partial schemes, as hitherto the relief held out to one class of the poor in Ireland, fell heaviest on the other poor part of it. The greatest part of the taxes of the north of Ireland, was paid by people inhabiting houses of about 51. a year, and as no other property there but lands and houses contributed to the payment of the poor, he was desirous of having some more general measure. Mr. Parnell said, it was impossible to travel over the high roads in Ireland, without being sensible of the necessity of this measure; and as to the objection of its falling heavy on the land owners; they were a description of persons in that country best able to afford it.-The bill was then read a first time. Mr. Foster considered this as a law professing to assist that of 1772, for taking up idle persons, and obliging them to work. That act was only carried into execution in Dublin, where there was now the sum of 20,0001. paid annually for the support of vagabonds; and Dublin being considered as the centre, all the other counties entirely neglected them. If the bill was, as he supposed, intended to compel grand juries to extend their powers in this respect, he should vote against it, and particularly, as he thought it by far too [TRAINING BILL.] On the motion of late in the session to press a measure Mr. Secretary Windham, the house went which had before been so frequently agi-into a committee on this bill. That clause tated and rejected in the Irish parliament. being read which confined the operation of Mr. Bagwell said, there were houses of the bill to England industry in other places besides Dublin, but that they were supported by private subscription. Sir J. Newport explained, that if the right hon. gent, attended to the bill, he would find it expressly provided, that one half of the houses should be appropriated | to the correction of vagabonds and sturdy beggars, and the other half to the relief of the needy poor. The right hon. gent. was also wrong in supposing that this was the first time of levies for this purpose being made compulsory upon grand juries, of which he quoted two or three instances, and the only compulsion was on the counties which had houses of industry, to maintain them. As to the charge of bringing it forward so late in the session, he appealed to the recollection of members, whether he had not made the same proposition last year. In the early part of this session, he was, for a time, kept out of his seat, by what he must consider a very improper proceeding. Since then, his time had been fully occupied, as would be proved by the great mass of business he had already brought forward; and, late as it might be, he hoped he should now be permitted to go on with a measure, which he felt to be so essenGal to the welfare of his country. Mr. Yorke rose to express his opinion of it. He approved of the general principle of the bill, as far as it was similar to that which he had the honour to bring in on a former occasion, and thought it, in the present state of Europe, of essential importance to the safety of the country. United with the militia, the men levied under this bill would form a second line to the regulars, should the enemy effect a landing. So much for the general principle of the bill; but it must undergo considerable modification, before it could meet his entire approbation. He should afterwards shew, that, instead of confirming, it abridged the royal prerogative; but he should at present confine himself to that clause which limited its operation to South Britain. Now he could see no reason why Scotland should not be subject to the same burden, and possessed of the same means of defence with England. He would therefore proposé, that the words "Great Britain" should be inserted instead of "England.” Mr. Secretary Windham acknowledged, that there was much weight in what the hon. member had observed, and that all must be agreed in distributing the burden and defence as equally as possible. But he should state the reasons which induced him Mr. Alexander said, that however dis-tó confiñe the present operation of the bill agreeable it might be to oppose a measure, to England. In the first place, to a great part of that country, especially that part called the Highlands, the bill would not apply, and besides, from the general habits of the people, it was less necessary. In Scotland the people were also better trained and more military than here. The state of the volunteers was superior, according to what he had learned, not in point of numbers, for he did not know that in this respect they exceeded their proper proportion, but in point of discipline. But then came the objection, that the numbers of the volunteers would be much diminished by withdrawing the June allowances. Though gentlemen seemed to hold out such considerations as these, somewhat in the way of a menace, yet he was willing to hope that this menace or expectation was ill. founded. It ought to be considered, that if the allowance was diminished, the duty was also diminished. To that part of Scotland, called the Lowlands, certainly the bill might be more applicable; but still it was thought proper to try the experiment in England, and not to include Scotland in the first instance. There might be reasous why it should not extend to Scotland at all, though he rather thought it might at some future time; but at all events it would be imprudent to extend it to Scotland now. Another reason was the advanced state of the session, when many gentlemen of that country were out of town, and, therefore he would oppose the amendment. Sir James Pulteney saw no reason why the provisions of the bill should not extend to Scotland. It might not apply to the Highlands; but why not extend it to the Lowlands, which was the more populous part of the country, and that part too which was most exposed to attacks from the opposite coast. He allowed the excellence of the volunteers in that country, but it was to be considered, that on account of the distance from the capital, there was but a small regular force kept there, and therefore it ought to have the advantage of every other mode of defence. Whether or not the volunteers would be diminished, he should not say, but he hoped that, whether the provisions of the bill were to be applied to Scotland this year or not, they would be afterwards applied to it. Mr. Perceval observed, as to the point of the bill's not being applicable to Scotland, that the provisions of the bill of 1803 had, in fact, extended to that country. The reasons given for not extending this measure to Scotland were perfectly nugatory, for they would apply equally well to many parts of Wales, Cumberland, and Westmoreland, in the mountainous districts of which the population was very much scattered. But at any rate there was no reason why the bill should not extend to the Lowlands of Scotland. Though the people might be more military and better tramed, still the king ought to have the power of calling them out; and this he might exercise according to his discretion, and exempt particular districts, as circumstances should require. There was no dif ficulty in executing the militia laws in Scotland, and why should not this measure be extended to that country, when the principle was the same? But then it had been said that the volunteers were in a better state there. It was certainly to be considered, that these were to be deprived of the June allowances, and scarcely any motive but their zeal would remain to keep them together; and here the reasoning of the ministers themselves, that a variety of motives, such as the ballot for the militią and the army of reserve, were necessary to induce men to continue in these corps, might be turned against themselves. He would certainly, therefore, support the amendment. Colonel Wood observed, that the mili tia laws were new in Scotland, and had at first occasioned considerable dissatisfaction there. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to wait for another year, before the principle of this bill should be extended to Scotland. Mr. Calcraft said, that his reason for not wishing to extend the provisions of the bill to Scotland, in the first instance, was, that the experiment might not be tried on too great a surface, but that it ought to be confined to the country were it was most applicable. As to the act of 1803, it was to be considered that it had not been carried into effect; and it was questionable whether, at the time it was brought in, it was intended to be carried into effect. Mr. Bastard contended, that whatever might have fallen from the hon. secretary, the volunteers of England were not one jot behind those of Scotland either in discipline or in zeal. Besides, there was no cer tainty whatever of raising men under the present bill. It was in fact a money bill, since upon paying a fine of 51. any man might be exempted from its operation; and he thought that all who were by any means able to afford it would rather pay the fine. This would make the bill liable to the same objections as the parish bill. Was not Scotland bound to bear a share in the general expence of the country, and why should a burden be imposed on this country from which Scotland was exempted? He spoke with great warmth of the enthusiasm of the volunteers in that part of the country with which he was best acquainted, and thought that the defence of the country might be safely intrusted to them. If the volunteers of Scotland were well disciplined, they had also been liberally paid, since a much greater number of corps had been there upon the June allowance, than in this country. Mr. Secretary Windham observed, that gentleman argued as if he had said that the lateness of the session precluded him from doing what he would otherwise have done. He had said no such thing, for though this might be a motive for the house to oppose the amendment, he allowed that it was no justification of ministers. But he had said, that at whatever time the measure might have been brought forward it ought not to apply, in the first instance, to Scotland. As to the general principle of applying to one part what was not applied to another, the gentlemen on the other side ought to think of their own practice, and not insist on the principle of equality too broadly, because in that view Ireland also ought to be included. There might be reasons why the bill should not apply to Scotland for two or three years. Perhaps it might never apply, although he rather thought that it might some time hence. The militia ballot too, was in force in Scotland, and this would be a motive for the volunteers to continue in their corps. As the situation of Scotland was not so favourable to this bill, we might, in applying it, also lose the good will of the people. Lord Castlereagh said, that the right hon. gent's arguments did not appear at all satisfactory to his mind. If he wished to make an experiment merely, he should recommend it to him to try it on a much narrower scale, and to confine, for the present, this boon of his to the county of Norfolk with which he was best acquaint ed. As to Ireland, no argument whatever could be founded on its not being proper to apply the bill to that country, in favour of the exemption of Scotland. The state of the two countries were totally different. The circumstance of the militia-ballot being still in force in Scotland pointed out to him a defect in the right hon. gent's military system, of which he had not be fore been aware. The militia-ballot was to be given up here because it injured the recruiting service. But now it appeared that it was still retained in that place where the recruiting could succeed best. He thought that both countries ought to be included in this bill.. Mr. Whitbread contended that this bill was totally different from the parish bill, in respect of fines, for the people were fined so enormously, that they could not pay, for not doing what they could not by any possibility perform. There were few labourers who would not choose rather to be trained 24 days, with 1s. a-day, thau to pay 51. If gentlemen went on a principle of equality, the bill ought to extend to Ireland; there were reasons against this, and so there were for extending it to Scotland. He was of opinion that none of the volunteers of Scotland would with draw themselves, on account of being deprived of the additional allowance. Mr. Bankes observed, that he had never heard a measure supported on such slender grounds, or by so little good sense. The bill was to be considered both in the light of a benefit and a burden, and he could see no reason for confining its effects to one part of the country. With regard to the most extensive and populous part of Scotland, whatever was applicable to England was also applicable to Scotland. As to the bill being a matter of experiment, he would ask, was a small surface selected, when it was proposed to extend the expe riment to all England? and why should England alone be selected for this experiment, which, if not found to answer, was to be withdrawn, after the feelings of Englishmen had been sported with? Were we so vile and contemptible as to be called upon to bear this burden alone? From all he had heard of the volunteers of Scotland he was disposed to speak of them with respect, but it gave him pain to listen to the invidious and unfair comparison that had been made by a right hon. gent. this night. He would ask him, what he had to complain of as to the zeal or discipline of the volunteers of England? On the whole he thought, that Scotland, where the great body of the people had the same manners and habits with the people of this country, should not be exempted from a burden which this country was to bear. With regard to the number of men that would come forward to be disciplined, he was not very sanguine on that point. It would be a material drawback with many, to consider that they were liable to be drafted into any regular regiment, for an unlimited period, as might happen to be the case under the bill. Colonel Eyre considered, that for a permanent military arrangement, there was too much of severity in this system. The people of England were ready to bear those hardships which appeared necessary, but not those burdens for which they could see no necessity. When there was a pressing danger, the volunteers appeared sufficient to meet it; and if there was any relaxation in their discipline, or deficiency in their numbers at the present time, it was merely because the danger was less urgent. Mr. C. Wynne thought the provisions of the bill not applicable to Scotland at present. When it was now argued that this bill, by inflicting a fine, imposed a great burden on the people of England, he must beg leave to remind the right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) who brought in the other bill, that that was supported merely by arguments on what was called the undoubted prerogative of the crown, and that there were no means given of escaping its operation even upon the payment of a fine. It must, therefore, evidently appear that the former bill was a greater burden imposed upon the people of England. An hon. gent. was mistaken who supposed, that because the fines were remitted which were due in consequence of the parish bill, that, therefore, the fines must be remitted which would become due under this bill. The reason that the fines were remitted to the parishes on the former bill was, that it was conceived unjust that they should be fined for not raising men, when it was impossible that they could have raised them. Nobody, however, would say, that there was any impossibility to prevent the service of those who should be balloted under the present bill. Lord Binning thought, that whatever there was of good or of evil in the present bill, should be extended as well to Scotland as to England. He did not like a gratuitous and unnecessary distinction be VOL. VII. tween one part of G. Britain and the other. He thought the principle of the present bill was generally applicable to Scotland, for there was not more than a fourth of the whole population of that country under the circumstances which were stated as an objection. There were several parts of England and Wales that lay open to the same objection, but he did not see why the whole of Scotland should be exempted on account of the circumstances of a part. As to the volunteers of Scotland, they were entitled to every degree of praise, but at the same time, he thought, that equal credit was due to the volunteers of England, and therefore that the argument founded on a distinction between them was entitled to little weight. Colonel Matthews was of opinion, that the experiment would completely fail, and therefore, it was not of much consequence on what scale it was tried. Mr. Huskisson perceived a great inconsistency in the arguments of the supporters of the bill. At one time, they spoke of it as an experiment, which, in another year, might be extended to Scotland; and, at another time, they spoke of it as inappli. cable to Scotland, on account of the smallness of its population. This last objection had no sort of connection with the former; for whether the experiment succeeded in England, or whether it failed, the mountains of Scotland would not disappear and the Highlands would remain just as they were. As to the argument of freeing Scotland from the burden on account of the number of the volunteer corps, he must observe, that the more volunteer corps were scattered over the country, the less would be the pressure. If there were fewer corps in England, of course it was more difficult for men to escape the opera tion of this act, by entering into them, as men could not in every part of the country find a volunteer corps to join. There was another argument which had been stated, but which he could by no means assent to. The mover of the bill supposed that there was great dissatisfaction in Scotland about the militia. He would confi dently assert, that, although there might have been some ferment in 1797, when the militia was first introduced in Scotland, yet, at the present day, there was no dis satisfaction upon that subject. Mr. Calvert thought that the great ad vantage would be rather in the enrolling 3 I |