obscurity in which it had been left by its mistake about it. He was then reduced to
original mover (Mr. Windham). The the necessity of believing that the right ho
right hon. secretary attempted to justify nourable gentleman had, by the use of his
his unwillingness to enter into the discus- own reflection, become so convinced of the
sion, by reproaching gentlemen on this side absurdity of his bill, as originally brought
of the house for not having urged their ob- in, that finding no opposition made from
jections at an earlier stage of the bill, either this side of the house, he had gone into the
entirely forgetting, or wilfully overlooking committee and opposed it there himself,
the circumstance, that at any other earlier and shewing the folly of all his own pro-
stage it was utterly impossible to discuss it visions, had been able to persuade the com-
But this was a
with any prospect of utility; for never till mittee to strike them out.
the present stage was the bill in a shape little hard upon the house. They were in-
at all intelligible. It was brought in, as duced to vote the clause in the mutiny act,
the house would remember, as a companion under a promise that the Chelsea bill should
to the mutiny act, and a sort of commentary contain the specific regulations by which
on a new clause in that act, by which the the principle of that clause should operate.
whole constitution of the army was changed. So long as the Mutiny bill was under dis-
This change the house had been always told cussion, the phantom of a bill full of regu-
to consider not by itself, but as coupled lations was danced before their eyes, and
with the provisions and regulations of the they were led on by the expectation of see-
Chelsea bill. The provisions and regulations ing it assume a perfect and substantive ex-
were then in blank only; but there was atistence. But no sooner is the mutiny act
least the promise which the blanks to be filled passed, than this delusion is withdrawn;
up afforded, that something was to be pro-and instead of specific regulations or provi-
vided, that something was to be enacted by
way of regulation, of which parliament was
to have cognizance, and upon which it was
freely to exercise its judgment. Of course
there was no possibility of exercising that
judgment till the precise nature of these pro-
visions was known: and this could only be
learnt in the committee, where the blanks
were to become speaking and substantive
clauses. To the committee, therefore, the
bill went, without any opposition; pro
forma, as the right hon. gent (Mr. Wind-
ham) assured them, that is as he understood
it, in order to be made perfect and intelligi-
ble in its then existing shape. But in the com-
mittee, the amendments, so far from being
formal, turned out to be no less than a total
alteration of the whole bill-an alteration so
total and radical, that upon comparing the
bill as it came out of the committee with
that which was referred there, it was hardly
possible to trace a resemblance between
them! He really had thought when this
new bill was put into his hands, that the
person who gave it him must have made
some gross mistake; and as he understood
that there was a committee sitting up stairs
upon a bill for regulating the Chelsea water-
works bill, that by the error of the name
Chelsea, the water-works must have been
imposed upon the right hon. gentleman
instead of his own, and that all his own
clauses might be now in the hands of the
water works committee. The right hon.
gent. however, seemed contented to adopt
the present bill; so there could be no such
VOL. VII.

sions, the house is presented with a bill,
which is in fact one great blank, or what is
worse still, one undiscriminating enactment
of unbounded confidence in his majesty's
ministers. And in the mean time, by this
mode of proceeding, discussion is made im-
possible, until the house have arrived at this
last stage; and in this stage all explanation
is denied. The bill, he has said, contained
but one enactment; and even of that enact-
ment the meaning was so equivocal, that
while ministers denied that which his learned
friend (Mr. Perceval) affixed to it, they re-
fused to give any construction of their own.
This was the point to which he hoped and
trusted the right honourable gentleman who
spoke last would have addressed himself.
He trusted that he would have thought it
decent and respectful to the house, to re-
move an ambiguity so perplexing and in-
convenient; aad if he could not satisfy the
house that either of the alternatives in
which the words might be understood, were
such as the house ought to sanction, that he
would at least have told them which of the
two of his majesty's ministers had in their
contemplation. The bill promised on the
part of the house of commons that they will
make good the expence of whatever regu
lations his majesty may think proper to es-
tablish. Taken by itself, it was obvious that
this engagement went to pledge the house
of commons to an unlimited extent, and to
put the public purse wholly at the disposal of
his majesty's ministers. But to cure this
construction, a notable expedient was re-
2 T.

sorted to. A proviso was added to the But instead of giving us that reasonable sapromise to this effect, "if parliament shall tisfaction, the right hon. gent. rebuked those have sanctioned the same." How was who required it at their hands, and charged this? If it was an effectual guard, it totally them with the grossest inconsistency and destroyed the efficacy of the engagement; contradiction in their arguments; "befor to promise to pay, if at the time when cause, say they, your first objection to this payment is demanded you shall think fit plan was that it invaded the prerogative of to pay, but not else, was equivalent to no the crown; and now you are all alive for the promise at all. What was the object of any privileges of the house of commons!" Supsuch previous engagement? The right posing this were so, where was the contrahon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had said-" Se. diction and inconsistency? Was it a recomcurity to the soldier."-Well then; what mendation to any plan that it commits two was the nature of that security? If the en- faults instead of one? Was it an atonement gagement on the part of parliament was and mitigation? Was it not rather an ag clear and unconditional, certainly the secu- gravation of its faultiness, that having set out rity was ample and unquestionable. Par- with invading the natural province of the liament engaged to make good whatever crown, it concludes with assigning over to the executive government might promise. the crown what is the natural province of Certainly this was ample security to give the house of commons? Was it inconsistto the soldier-but was it such as it was ent in those who detected and exposed the becoming to ask of parliament! On the first of these faults, to apply themselves other hand, if the engagement was not un- with equal readiness to the conviction of conditional, if by the proviso annexed to it, the other, when brought under their view? it was intended that the house of commons It had been complained of, and with great should retain a full and free discussion to truth, (and the complaint had been sup be exercised hereafter, whenever the par- ported by argument, which, if ill founded, ticulars of the expence incurred came before ought to have been refuted, but which rethem, then where was the additional se- mained uncontradicted to this hour) that by curity to the soldier! By how much more taking into the hands of the house the dewas he secure of the regulations in his tailed regulation of the military economy of favour being made good, by a pledge so the army, you invaded the province of the vague and unmeaning as this, that parlia- crown, and that to the extinction of which ment would make them good, if they should the crown alone was competent. It was so think fit! In which of these two senses now complained of with equal justice, that then he asked, did his majesty's ministers in executing that part of your system, to mean to have their bill understood? Was which the house of commons was compeit an unconditional pledge, fettering the tent, and which it was its peculiar right and future discretion of the house of commons, duty to administer the pecuniary part, you, or was it a conditional promise, liable to by the bill now before the house, wholly be fulfilled or not, according to future exclude the house of commons from any circumstances, and instead therefore of cognizance of the matter, and delegate the being a security, a mere trick and delu- power of the purse, with an uncontrouled sion upon the soldier? Neither of these discretion to the crown. The crown was senses were distinctly expressed by the to make the distribution, to settle the bill, as it now stood; either of them amount, and the house of commons had nomight with equal fairness be at- thing to do but to find the means of meeting tributed to it. Was it too much to re- the expence. But no, said the right hon. quire of his majesty's present ministers, gent., the time will come when the house of or any one of those who stood at the head commons will have the whole subject beof the government, that they should have fore them, when the regulations themthe goodness and condescension, not to selves will be before them. Then, why not argue against such feeble and unworthy wait till then, before they pass any bill upon opponents, and to prove their own inten- the subject? O! but it was necessary to tions to be right-that would be too much have something to hold out to the soldier; to expect from them-but merely to let some pledge on the part of parliament. So the house of commons know what it was it was a pledge, then! and if a pledge that that they commanded them to enact-in must be fulfilled, what became of the diswhat sense their bill was to be understood-cretion of the house of commons? The diin what sense, if in any, they, in their lemma was inextricable, and the right hon. great wisdom, understood it themselves?-gent. had not even made one effort to es

cape from it. But, after all, why were not | the regulations ready to be laid before parliament now? Was it possible that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) who certainly had given his undivided attention to this plan; for nothing else of any sort or kind he had done, or appeared to think he had to do; was it possible that after so many years consideration out of office, so much mature reflection in office before he brought forward his plan at all, that after that plan had now been two months announced to the house as perfected in all its parts, he was not now ready to bring forward the regulations, which after all were the vital part of his whole system? It could not be. He had them ready: for he had framed the bill originally with clauses to detail them; and precious clauses they were; particularly those which were to give his majesty, in compensation to be sure for those parts of his royal prerogative which were taken away from him, a prerogative which he never dreamt of exercising, an unlimited power over the almanack. Days were to be weeks; weeks, months; and months, years, at his command; two years were to be one, and one year was to be two. Such clauses there were; but what was become of them? Has the rt. hon. gent. altered his own mind about them in the short time that has elapsed since he brought them in? And was he prepared to urge that whimsical variety and instability of judgment, that perpetual fluctuation of counsel, as a ground for the house of commons giving unbounded credit and confidence to what he might produce hereafter? The whole of the argument, if argument it might be called of the right hon. gent. resolved itself simply into a claim of confidence on the part of administration. The house were to vote this bill, they were to take the pledge contained in it, in perfect confidence that the ministers would exact nothing from them in consequence of that pledge, but what the house must approve, when it should come to be submitted to their consideration. And the right hon. gent. who spoke last seemed to take it very ill that this confidence was withheld, and the propriety of giving it questioned, by persons who, as he said, at the outset of Mr. Rose considered this the only expla the present government had professed a de- nation given as yet. He complained of sire to support them. For my own part, the enormous and unnecessary expence in said the right hon. gent., I have no pledge which this measure would involve the counor promise of that sort to account for: I try, and concluded by expressing his conhave nothing to retract, or qualify, or ex-viction that a noble lord, whom he had hiplain. I never offered any general professions of support. I never thought myself called upon to do so. I have given my

opinion freely, as a member of parliament, on the measures of the government, as they. have been brought forward and sorry have I been to find, that scarcely one of the measures which have originated with them has been such as I did not feel myself bound to oppose. ¡ And I quite concur in the opinion expressed by my noble and learned friends (lord Castlereagh and Mr. Perceval) as to the general character both of the system of the present ministers, and of the manner in which it has been carried into effect, and in which public business has been conducted in this house, since this great administration came into office-that nothing can form a more ludicrous contrast than their promises and their performance. Of one noble person indeed, in the other house of parliament (lord Grenville), who forms a part of the administration, I have once before had occasion to speak. Perhaps it is to that occasion the right hon. gent. alluded. I did once say (it was early in the session, and before the measures and system of the government had been developed) that I was desirous of placing confidence in an administration of which he was the head. My personal confidence, my personal esteem and regard for that noble person, continue unimpaired: but to talk of him now at the head of the government; after all that we have heard, all that we have seen, to consider him as the presiding and directing mind, is impossible. I am sorry for it; But I admit no claim for confidence arising from an expression which was applied to an individual, and which was founded on an error as to his weight and situation in the government. In his colleagues I neither have, nor ever professed to have, the confidence which they now demand; and by my vote of this night I shall certainly refuse to give it to them.

The Attorney General spoke in support of the bill, and said it was one that ought to be considered, not as distinct from, but pari passu with the mutiny bill; and that the provisions of both stood equally pledged, upon the faith of parliament and the discretion of his majesty.

therto been taught to consider as the head of his majesty's councils (lord Grenville) had no hand whatever in concerting these

the painted chamber, the committee appointed to manage it, consisting of the duke of Norfolk, earls of Radnor and Romney, lord Falmouth, the bishop of St. Asaph, lords Holland, Keith, Dundas, Ellenbo rough and Lauderdale, went forth to the

measures. He had always heard that noble lord alluded to by his majesty's present ministers of this house, as at the head of his majesty's present government; but he now found there really was no ostensible minister in that department but the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox). For the noble lord (Gren-painted chamber. Shortly afterwards they ville) and his consummate talents and high character, his own esteem never sustained the smallest abatement; but as to his colleagues, he was quite sure that the whole history of parliament never presented such a period of ministerial imbecillity, inefficiency, and confusion, as since his majesty's present administration was formed.

Lord Temple rose with much warmth, and expressed his utter indifference as to what opinion the right honourable gentleman or his friends might form of the talents of himself, or those with whom he had the honour to act; but he could now assure that right hon. gent. that he spoke the language and sentiments of his noble relation (lord Grenville), when he stated that he thanked no man for compliments paid to him at the expence of his colleagues.-After a few words from Dr. Laurence, in support of the bill, the house divided, Ayes 65; Noes 30; Majority for the bill 35. The bill was then read a third time, passed, and ordered to the Lords. Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, June 13.

[MINUTES.] In the appeal Seymour v. the carl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, Mr. Richards was heard for the respondents, after which the further consideration of it was postponed till the next day.-The royal assent was given by commission to the Property Duty bill, the Irish Sugar bill, the Irish Stamp Duties bill, the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, and several private bills. The commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.-Lord H.Petty, and several other members of the house of commons, brought up a message, stating that the house of commons requested a conference with their lordships, on a subject in which the reputation of the country, and the interests of humanity, justice, and sound policy, were deeply concerned. The house agreed to a conference presently in the painted chamber, of which the messengers from the commons being called in, were informed. A committee was appointed to manage the conference. The house being informed that the commons waited the conference in

returned; when the duke of Norfolk re ported that the commons had communicated to them a certain resolution relative to the Abolition of the Slave Trade.

[MUTINY BILL.] The order being read, for going into a committee on the above bill, the house resolved itself into the same accordingly, lord Walsingham in the chair.

After a short previous conversation, of an explanatory nature, between the earls of Westmoreland and Spencer, as to the regular mode of discussing the provision or enactment of the bill, which it appeared was in one of the schedules,

The Earl of Westmoreland rose, and in a speech of considerable length, expressed his objections to the clause alluded to. He contended that it was an invasion of the royal prerogative, inasmuch as it prescribed the exact term for which men should be enlisted to serve in the army, and precluded his majesty from enlisting men upon any other condition. This was an abridgement of the power and an infringement of the prerogative of the crown, by taking from the king that power over the army which had hitherto been constitutionally vested in the crown. A measure too which went to change the whole constitution of the army, was introduced in the shape of a clause in the Mutiny bill, thus leaving that house no choice but between the dangerous nature of the experiment attempted to be tried, and the inconveniencies which would result from the disorganization of the army in consequence of not passing the Mutiny bill. Thus also would his majesty be called upon to sacrifice a material portion of his power and his prerogative, because it would be said that the Mutiny bill must be passed or else the army could not be kept together. Those who on a former occasion advised his majes ty not to give his assent to a bill which went to abridge the king's prerogative, but the refusal to sanction which only lett things as they were, could not now say that no other consequence would result than leaving things as they were, they might say, your ministers have made a bill different to that which your majesty ordered to be brought in, but a Mutiny bill must be sanctioned or the army cannot exist.

Earl Spencer spoke to order. The noble

earl had, he said, no right to state, that his the experience they gained in the course of majesty had ordered a bill to be brought in. 7 years of service, became expert engineers, The Earl of Westmoreland proceeded. and were capable of obtaining great emoluThe present measure was, he said, of the ment in various ways, and who would not same character with those before proposed therefore stay a moment longer than the exby an administration, in which it was said so piration of the first term of service. That much of the talent and ability of the country noble lord would therefore doubtless tell the was concentrated. Tojudge of their measures committee, that under the operation of such ex pede Herculem, it was Hercules with a measure the artillery could not be kept up. his club, acting the part of a destroyer, and What, likewise, would be the effect upon our not as a renovator; former measures were colonial service? Was he to understand done away and destroyed, but where were that in the West Indies, after giving 701. or the substitutes? He professed the highest 801. for slaves to form black regiments, that respect for the noble lord at the head of his those persons, after their terms of service majesty's government, for his ability, his in- had expired, were to be thrown loose upon tegrity, and his anxious desire to serve his society, and under the measure now proposed, country. For the head of the administration his majesty would not have the power to rehe had the highest respect, but he did not tain them? How, also, would it affect the like the stern of it; he did not like the prin- troops sent out to our colonies? It would ciples of the stern; he feared their opera- be impossible for the commanders to ascertion. With respect to the measure which tain with any precision the number of men was more immediately the subject of delibe- it would be necessary continually to replace; ration in the committee, wonderful effects, they might send for a number of men init had been predicted, would be produced stead of those whose terms were near expir by its operation. It had been said in othering, whilst in the mean time those whose places, that the condition of the army would terms of service were longer, might be carbe improved, its strength increased, that ried off by disease. The regiments also, bounties would decrease, and desertions be whose terms of service were near expiring, diminished. He did not believe that any would hesitate to go to a distant clime on such benefits would result from the measure. any emergency. Another objection also How was it possible, that under the proposed arose from the effect which such a measure regulations relative to limited service, the would have upon the army as already conarmy could be kept up? Taking the whole stituted. Men whose services were for life number of the army at 200,000 men, en- could scarcely see without jealousy others listed for limited service, as proposed, at the by their side whose terms of service were end of 7 years, and every year afterwards a continually expiring, and who were thus enseventh part of that number must be disabled to return to their families. These obcharged, amounting to about 28,000 men;jections pressed forcibly on his mind, and this, added to the waste of men in the course operated directly against this measure, which of a year, amounting to about 12,000, would had been rejected after mature deliberation make up the number of 40,000 men to be by his right hon. friend deceased (Mr. Pitt), recruited every year, and how was it possible who was then at the head of administration; to raise such a number of men in this coun- and he trusted the modern Alexanders would try in the course of one year? He was tho- pay some respect to the plans of Philip. He roughly convinced that the army could not concluded by moving to leave out all the be kept up in that manner ithout having words of the oath which contained the limirecourse to a military conscription, or some tation of service. compulsory measure of that description. Earl Spencer said, he wished to state shortly Such a measure as that now proposed would, to their lordships the reasons which induced besides, give rise to a system of continual re-him to support the proposed plan of limited cruiting, drunkenness, and canvas for the pur- service. He thought, in reasoning upon pose of inducing men whose terms were near this subject, that it was impossible to draw expiring to enlist again. He begged pardon any other conclusion, than that men would for trespassing so long upon the committee be much more readily induced to enlist into and preventing the noble master general of the army for 7 or for 10 years, with the the ordnance (ld. Moira) from rising, who he prospect of being enabled to return to their was sure would oppose this measure and would families at the expiration of that period, tell their lordships that by the effect of this crowned with laurels, and enjoying those measure the artillery would be destroyed; who benefits which this measure held out to them, would tell them that men in that corps, from than to enlist for life, and of course without