sure for a system, no part of which he cou approve of. The measure had succeed completely in Ireland. In the 18 mont since it had passed, there had been raise Ireland 4552 men under its operat These men had been raised in the man. directed by the act on the bounty allow by law. No more money was paid than th act directed, on raising the men. He ha been informed, even by a learned judg who went the North-East circuit, that had been applied to at an assizes, to susper the levy of the penalties incurred for som deficiencies under the act, to the last day the Assizes. The judge did so and the me were all produced. On these grounds, h should vote against the repeal. Lord Henry Petty thought it sufficien in answer to what had been said by the hor gent. below him, to observe, that he ha spoken of Ireland, whereas the present bi went only to the repeal of the act in England With regard to the question now before th valent to parliament surrendering its authority, would be incompatible with the diguity of the legislature, and would operate as a pernicious precedent in future. It was also unjust, inasmuch as it placed the active and neglectful parishes exactly on the same level. In proof of this, he should adduce the instance of Mary-la-bonne parish. Its quota under the reserve act had been 225, and under the present act 80; but it had not raised, and indeed had not endeavoured to raise a single man under either. On the other hand, St. Anne's parish, in the immediate vicinity, had found every man of its quota, and these parishes were now proposed to be placed precisely on the same footing, and the latter might console itself as it best could, under all its expence and trouble, while the former got off triumphant. It went to remove every distinction between those parishes that did their duty under the act of parliament and those that neglected it.-He apologized to the house, for having taken up so much of their time on this occasion, but the sub-house, with whatever surprise and regret h ject itself was of such importance, and branched out into so many ramifications, that he did not feel competent to do it justice without entering much into detail. On the whole, he was convinced that no measure which the rt. hon. gent. could bring forward, would produce an equal number of men with the act which it was proposed to repeal. Indeed, if it were his wish to involve his Majesty's Ministers in difficulty and disgrace, he could not pursue a more effectual course than to suffer the bill to pass, to withdraw all opposition from the proposed system, and to permit the measures meant to be brought forward to pass without any comment or amelioration. But he was so thoroughly convinced of the effect that the bill under discussion would have on the military strength and ultimate security of the country, that he should oppose it in every stage. He contended that the bill proposed to be repealed was advantageous, and not objectionable, and capable of improvement as to the abuses that were so much insisted upon, as well as rendered highly productive to the army, On all these grounds, therefore, he should vote against the Speaker's leaving the chair. Mr. Denis Browne objected to the plan proposed by the rt. hon, secretary, as calcuated to change the whole military system of the country. He would not consent to the repeal of the Additional Force bill, Eecause he looked upon it as productive, and had reason to know it had proved efficient. He could not consent to give up such a mea heard this oppressive measure of the Additi onal Force act defended, his concern wa not unmixed with satisfaction, that now th noble lord had consented to try the matte on its own merits. When this measure wa at first proposed, it was brought forward in opposition to the plans of the former admi nistration, and it was of the effects which i had produced that we were now called upor to judge. In trying the merits of the act which he acknowledged the noble lord, a far as he went, stated pretty fairly, he would set aside every thing that was objectionable in the constitution of the act itself, and consider it with a view to the purpose which i was designed to answer, the success of which he would admit, for the present, would en title it to the adoption of the house. The repeal of the act was founded on its complete failure in all its objects. The noble lord would observe that its first object was to procure a large and fixed supply for the regular army, a supply proportioned to the dificiencies in the army of reserve and the militia. Now, he would beg the indulgence of the house while he stated what the act ought to have obtained, what it did obtain, and what were the penalties on the counties. The deficiencies in the militia were 16,939 men, and in the army of reserve 8,975 men. Altogether, then, the bill before the 1st of Oct. 1805, ought to have produced 25,914 men. The parishes did produce somewhat above 4000 men, and incurred penalties to the amount of 450,6051. Now, here he in an. ded the numbers raised by the military parish officers had duties to perform, totally Con, though the noble lord had taken the distinct from those imposed on them by this eeders in Scotland and Ireland, whereas act, and in some measure incompatible with Coill went only to repeal the act in England. them; and therefore their unwillingness was he heard from the noble lord, that the not matter of much surprise. But who obhad at length arrived when the parishjected to the plan of his rt. hon. friend on ers would be instructed, when the inspec- the ground of its making this country too How would relieve the country gentlemen, and military? Why, the very persons who supthen the whole operose machinery of this ported this act which went to put those in a Te had would be put in motion. He solicited military capacity who were least of all fitted for judge house therefore, to attend prospectively it, from the nature of the other duties which hat the effects which this act was likely to they had to attend to. The object of the peduce, and in what situation it would leave bill was to put an end to crimping and to So the country at the end of autumn. Looking high bounties, and so far was it from anthen at casualties, vacancies in the militia, swering this object, that it encouraged both, mene, the total number of men which the act The parish officers were forced to have reshaght to produce on the 1st of Oct. 1806, course to crimps; and you might limit the as 27,132 men. Now, take it at its most bounty to 121. as you pleased; but when it cient, productive rate, which was 170 men per was the interest of the party to give any hon week, the number which it would produce thing less than 321. set the crimp and the hadas 4,930 men, which would leave a defi- officer together, and something very like 321. biciency of 22,202 men, and causing penalties would be given. Add to this, that you were Was this a tax by no means sure that you had a soldier after and the amount of 515,000l. Out of this criminal conversation, that was to be allowed by the house? If all. heach was its principle, if such its provisions, which the crimp and officer held together dit and if this was the way in which it was to for the purpose of violating the bill, what w be regarded, was it not a boon to the coun- did you gain? Why, a man for limited serAnd all this too, by try to have this act repealed? Was not the vice, that most useless, as it had been said, after repeal of it a duty which his rt. hon. friend of all sorts of men. waed to the country? But, there was ano- the operation of the sympathy which must dather consideration which called for the re-exist between the battalions, when, perhaps, mal of this act; and that was, the quality of they had no connection whatever with each And this was supported by those hite troops which it produced; examples of other! pon thich would be found by recurring to the who objected to the plan of his rt. hon, act papers on the table. What would the house friend on the grounds of its sentimentality, ink of the quality of the troops when out while they followed regular rules. They uld of 11,453, or thereabouts, 2,116 had desert-adapted their philosophy to their system, ble? And this too, arising from an act supported by those who objected to the plan of its rt. hon. friend on grounds which, in their chpinion, bore some resemblance to this. But let us look at the means by which these men were raised. Were they raised by the tet? Certainly not: for it had totally failed. Bat the noble lord (Castlereagh) said that the unwillingness of the parish officers was eo removed. The inspectors, however, eccording to the papers on the table, seemed to have found these officers strangely unwil-ble lord had acted unfairly, for he had gone Eng. But this unwillingness appeared, by back to a period of peace. It was true, gosome, to be considered as a fault, and a de- vernment then wanted men; but they got sire to avoid a duty. Now, if a person as he as many as they wanted, and there they was on his way to that house, were to come to stopped. But in six months of 1803, the him and ask him to go along with him to erect number recruited for the regular army or finish a fortification, he would consider it as amounted to 6,538 men; in the next six not a little hard, if he was to be told that he months it fell to 4,504; and in the next six had not done his duty, because he refused to months to 3,749. In the next six months the go and abandon that duty which was more number was 5,949, and in the next 6,698, particularly confined to his charge. So the But when the additional force act came into he while he adapted his system to his philoso- The no Mr. Babington said, that it was unquestionable that the provisions of the act had for their object to raise men, instead of which the act had only operated to raise mo that those 200 men that were stated by the returns on the table as having been raised by parish officers, were in fact only handed over by the recruiting serjeants of other corps, as men that being under size, could only be admitted in this description of force. Five guineas a man was given to a recruiting officer for getting persons of that description, and the act was never in that county considered to be any thing but an act to raise money in the parishes. The apportionment that was made of the men to be raised in the respective parishes, was not on the proportion of their population, but of their wealth and their ability to contribute. He therefore thought the act had completely failed in its proposed objects, and ought to be repealed. operation, the number sunk to 4,800 men. | already paid them, they would suffer the The deficiency of the last six months kept grossest injustice. This was a great inconpace with the increased operation of the venience, but it was a thing there was no act. This deficiency was 1,898 men. The avoiding, and necessity must be its excuse, act produced 1,960 men, a number which I was therefore a boon to the public to rewas only a little greater than the amount of peal this act, and a debt which his rt. hon. the deficiency, and these few additional friend owed to the nation, as it was in the men were procured with all the increase of highest degree oppressive and vexatious, and bounty, and the oppressive and vexatious at the same time completely inadequate to circumstances that attended the execution of the purposes for which it was originally in this act. This, after all, was but one view of tended." the subject. He had only attended to the effects of the act as they were connected with what had been promised from its ope ration. He would not detain the house with a detail of the objections to this mea-ney. In the county of Leicester, he knew sure from the manner in which it employed the parish officers and other matters; but even from what he had stated, he was totally at a loss to understand what could be the use of retaining such an act as that which the house was now called upon to repeal. It might, to be sure, be useful to a few persons in opposition, for certainly an opposition less independant, and less pure, than that which we now had, might make use of it to clog the measures of government. They might say, "You want to get rid of crimps, but we leave you that which must preclude the possibility of getting rid of them. You want to raise the character of the soldier, but we leave you that which will render your doing so impossible." But these were not the motives of the hon. gents. over the way They no doubt defended this measure from the natural partiality which they must feel for a plan, in the arrangement of which they themselves had assisted. But it was said, that we argued from abuses; this was true, but what sort of abuses? not such as might be remedied, but abuses arising from the nature of the act, and which were absolutely necessary in its operation.-Now, this was all thathe intended to have said but the conclusion of the noble lord's speech required a few words by way of answer. He lamented that the penalties were to be repaid to the parishes. In answer to that, he had only to lament that this was absolutely necessary, unless you wished to retain the act, and where the alternative was to keep it unless you repaid the penales, the house could not hesitate long. It was another objection to the act, that it was so difficult to get rid of it. But this was the only way in which the matter could be managed. The penalties could not be exacted after the act was repealed, and unless they were paid back to those who had : Col. Bagwell was astonished to hear an hon. gent. who spoke early in the debate assert, that inflammatory language had been made use of by the gentlemen who opposed the bill. Such an assertion, he conceived, never could be established to the satisfaction of the house, and therefore should not have been made. He was of opinion, that if ever there was a cause which more than another called forth the patriotic feelings of the country, it was the present. When the rt hon. gent. who brought in the bill now under debate, and his colleagues, first came into office, the public were elated with the hope, that some measure, beneficial to the country, would be undertaken; but, instead of having these hopes realized, they were astonished to find that nothing which was likely to be so, was proposed; and, in short, that the new administration had not only not increased the number of the army, but that they had not endeavoured to increase the spirits of it. He then referred to the late gallant achievement of the British force, at the Cape of Good Hope, and said, that the rt. hon, secre no other reason, he thought the bill out to be repealed. As to the plan that had been proposed by the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Wind tary, instead of being the first to move for the thanks of the house to the officers and soldiers who fought so gloriously on that occa sion, was the very first who threw an obsta-ham) as a substitute for this bill, he must. cle in the way of that vote. As to the de- say, that, generally speaking, he approved fence act, whatever imperfection it might highly of it, and thought it would be likely have, he thought it better than nothing, and to be a very efficient and useful measure; the rt. hon. gent. had not proposed any thing but there was one part of it he never could' as a substitute for it. He was happy to think agree to; and that was permitting soldiers to that a minister, now no more, had founded throw up their muskets, and retite during the military establishment of this country the continuance of the very war in which on so permanent a footing, that so long as it they had been enlisted, if their term of continued under the fostering care of the 7 years had expired. This was a part of it royal person now at its head, not all the chi- that he knew a great many of the rt. hon, merical ideas of the rt. hon. gent. would be gent's. friends would oppose; and as for himable to overturn it. self, he should rather reject the plan altogether than admit such a principle. As to the parish bill, however, considering that it had failed in all the objects for which it was introduced, he should certainly vote for its repeal. Mr. Lee began by stating, that although by the returns on the table, it appeared that in the county he had the honour to represent (the county of Waterford) the parish officers had raised above 100 men, yet he could say, from his own certain knowledge, that there were not two men raised in the county in that manner. The number was entirely made up of men under the size of 5 feet 4 inches, who had been handed over to the parish officers by the serjeants who had been recruiting other descriptions of service. In England there were no less than 14 counties, in which not a man had been raised by parish officers; and in the large county of York, which ought to have produced 5,074, no more than 407 had been raised altogether within the last 18 months. He thought it was a great objection to the bill that, in the course of 18 months, it could not be understood by those whose duty it was to execute it. On the score of economy, it was most ridiculous to lay it down, that only 16 guineas should be given as bounty to a person enlisting for general service at cace, but that 12should be given to those who listed for this force, and 10 more if they should go from that to the regular army. It was only cheating ourselves, and picking our own pockets, to say that we were ready to give the same man 12 guineas in the mornig, and 10 more in the evening, or to put 12 guineas in one of his hands, and ten in the other, but to say, at the same time, that tpon the ground of economy, we could not tak of giving such a bounty as 22 guineas at one time. It would be confessed by every body, that the efficiency of the bill was rather in the breach than in the observance: was by the infraction of the law that the object and policy of it was obtained. This Wis a system so contrary to all ideas of moalty and good government, that were there VOL. VII. Sir E. Hartopp, took the opportunity of paying a compliment to the county he had the honour to represent, that it had raised the whole of its quota. They forbore at first because they did not understand the bill, but they had afterwards used every means in their power to carry the act into execution, and the county stood pre-eminently, if not solely on the ground of having obeyed and executed with alacrity the act of the legis lature. Mr. Perceval said, he considered the present system to be better than any which had been proposed to be substituted for it. If the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had thought* this act so bad in itself, or so unconnected with other parts of the military system,, he, certainly need not have delayed so long in moving the repeal. The rt, hon gent. however, by his conduct in that respect, shewed that he considered it necessary to state some other system to the house, before he called upon them to repeal that act. He could not therefore complain, if the gentlemen on that, side of the House should think it necessary to examine a little what kind of a substitute, was to be presented to them. The rt, hon. gent. had appeared to agree with the author of the act, that 300,000 men was about the number to which the army of the country should be raised. The army actually existing, amounted to 207,000, which in point of number, was not much inferior to what he himself thought necessary. thing else which constituted the excellence of an army, high spirit, good discipline and so forth, the rt hon. gent, seemed to confess, that nothing was wanting in the British ammy С As to every operation of this act. But, supposing that the act should be repealed, and in the course of the next year it was to be found, that instead of an increase, in consequence of the plan of the rt. hon. gent. it should produce an absolute diminution, what then must be done? If the plan should fail, it was evident that they must then have recourse to compulsion of some sort or another. He thought gentlemen that felt so much tenderness and compassion for the hardships to which the parishes were now exposed, would do well to consider what they must be exposed to next year, if the plan of the rt. hon gent. should not produce the effect he expected. In such case they must either have recourse to the ballot, or else to that sort of compul sion which acts upon the purse rather than upon the person. The ballot would certain as it now stood. Now, as to the number, the small deficiency which now existed would, in the course of a few years, be supplied by the regular operation of the existing system. The annual waste of the army by casualties, was reckoned at 15,000. On the other side, the general recruiting service produced, on an average, 11,000 every year, and the act that it was now proposed to repeal, produced, at the lowest calculation, 9,000, which left a regular increase to the army of 5,000 annually The plan, however, which was proposed in place of this system, was one that, primâ facie, did not promise any increase at all. Although the act had not been productive in many parts of England, yet it was allowed that in Ireland a considerable number of men had been raised under it: but although the repeal now moved for was only the Additional Force act that af-ly be more oppressive than the present act, fected England, yet if that was abandoned for should the ballotted men find substitutes, on the ground of its being obnoxious, op- there would be precisely the same quantum pressive and tyrannical, there must be a suni- of money levied upon the parishes, but in a lar bill for repealing the Additional Force manner much more unequal and oppressive act for Ireland. It was not to be supposed to individuals. As to the plan that had been that a system so obnoxious as not to be en-stated by the rt, hon. gent as a substitute for dured in this country, was to be rivetted on Ireland. As to the noble lord (H. Petty), who complained of the act so much on account of the hardships the parishes suffered by its pressure, surely the noble lord would not think that that alone was a sufficient reson for repealing it. He would put it to that noble lord, would it be a sufficient ground for opposing his own measures of finance, to say that they pressed hard on the country? The noble lord would not admit such an argument as conclusive against his 10 per cent. property bill, which was supported on the strange and fanciful idea, that it was more consoling to the feelings of the nation, to see at once how high the tax could be carried, without going through any gradations of increase. The noble lord would certainly reply, that he knew such a tax must press hard upon the people; but he did not know any other that would produce what was wanting with less pressure. It was upon that principle that he should defend the act that it was now proposed to repeal He should say, that he knew no other system more likely than the present to obtain the number of men that were wanting. It was rating it low to say, that with the assistance of this act, no less than 20.000 recruits were obtained annually. He should then ask, had ever the ordinary recruiting service, without that assistance, produced that number? If not, the excess must be attributed to the this measure, there was no certainty of its being adopted by parliament, and therefore if the existing act was repealed, it would be possible that there would be nothing to set in its place. (Cries of hear, hear! from the ministerial bench) However clamorously gentlemen might cry hear, hear! he must say they had produced no documents to influence the House, and that it was too much to expect them to act on their prejudices alone. He could not but complain of the house being deprived of the authority of the opinions of the general officers who had been consulted. He understood, however, that with the exception of one, all of them had been against discharging soldiers in time of actual war. He should ask the rt. hon. gent. had not the officers of the artillery been consulted? Had they not actually remonstrated? (Mr. Windham answered, no.) He really had understood that they had, and that they stated, that before a man had been ten years in the artillery, he was not fit to be a serjeant, and that it was between the 10th and 20th year of the service that they were the most useful. As to the part of the plan which was to prevail upon the men to reenlist for a second period of 7 years, he thought it could not be adopted. The rt. hon. gent. had not proposed to give any second bounty, but only an increased pay of 6d. a week. Could any body suppose that this 6d. a week would have as strong an ef |