his departure for a foreign settlement. as 5 or 6 millions must be very numerous; From friendship to that gentleman, he had and it would be extremely inconvenient for generally performed his duty; and when-that house to examine the whole of the eviever he was not present, it was done by dence in all the cases. It might, indeed, some other gentleman, for the convenience be right for them to make such a report as of the house. He was content to take the would shew, that they did not sleep upon blame of the inadvertency upon himself, as their duty; but, by calling for the grounds having acted most frequently.—It was then of their decisions, he was afraid the house ordered, that a message be sent to the lords, would make itself a party to them. to desire them to return the bill. [DEBTS OF THE NABORS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Hobhouse moved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Nabobs of Arcot's bill. Mr. Francis said, that a bill which was to dispose of 5,600,000l., so far from being a private one, was of the greatest public interest. For himself, he would take no part in it at all; as he did not think the parliament should be a party to any such agree ments. He would oppose it in toto; and would not consent, that the house of commons should give its sanction to claims of which a highly respectable gent., late chair. man of the Court of Directors (Mr. Grant), had declared, in his seat, three-fourths to be false demands; and, that it would be extraordinary, if even the other fourth should be established. Mr. Ryder rose to move, by way of amendment, that the words "appointing the commissioners to report to the house the grounds of their decision on every claim that was brought before them," be erased. He contended, that this clause made the house a court of appeal, and would prevent the decisions of the commissioners from being final. Besides, they might, sometimes, find themselves obliged to decide in opposition to the evidence that was laid before The Attorney-General said, the clause althem; and when this evidence was sub-luded to did not proceed from any distrust mitted to the house, it would not furnish of the commissioners; but was thought to them with the grounds of the commissio- be one which must be desirable even to ners' decision. He conceived the commissioners to be the ultimate resort in this case, since they were a sort of arbitrators between the East-India Co. and the creditors of the nabob. Lord H. Petty stated the origin of the clause now objected to; which had been proposed as an addition to another which he had introduced, for the purpose of obliging commissioners to report their decisions to the house from time to time. However, he saw no material objection to the amendment now proposed; but he should wish to hear the opinions of his legal friends on the subject. Mr. Windham supported the clause as it now stood; and observed, that it did not bind the house to investigate the grounds on which the commissioners decided in any instance; but merely went to enable parliament to review their proceedings whenever it might judge proper. themselves. Though the parties were the creditors, and the East-India Co. the debtors; yet it was a public measure; for, if it was of a private nature, why come to parliament at all? He thought, also, that the different debts might be classed, and the grounds of the decision laid before the house, without repeating the whole of the evidence. Mr. Rose thought, that if the commissioners were, as he believed them to be, fit and competent persons to enquire, the decision must be safer in their hands, than in those of that assembly. He disapproved of the whole of the clause, as the house could not possibly examine, itself, and decide upon all of the cases; and should not, therefore, give its sanction to the validity of any of the debts. Mr. Sheridan said, that every word he had heard, convinced him that this was an unfit commission. It was, in reality, the Mr. Perceval considered the motion to public money by which the debts were to be liable to many objections. The com- be liquidated; for how was the public to be missioners stood exactly in the light of ar-paid by the East-India Co., if their revebitiators between the creditors and the nues were swallowed up by the payment East-India Co., under a decree of parlia- of these debts? Who were the fit persons ment. That house might disagree with the judgment of the commissioners, whether the motives for their decision should be right or wrong. The claims for such a sum for deciding on these debts? Were they not commissioners so constituted, as that their decision should be final? Was it not monstrous, that commissioners should be appointed, whose decisions should be subject to appeal? This house was the most uufit place for reviewing them; and why not, at once, appoint parliamentary commissioners, whose decisions should be final? What was known already, with regard to India debts, in 1784, justified him in making a supposition, that some collusion might take place between the creditors and the company; by which the public might be defrauded. the late impeachment; and, if they bad read it, he trusted that they had taken it into their most serious consideration; as, according to what appeared in those journals, eleven of the judges of England had given it as their opinion, that the law gave no hold to the public on its officers; that, without violation of the law, such officers might make use of the public money for their own private purposes, if they pleased; and, on proof being had of such applicaLord Castlereagh was, also, for leaving tion, that the officers were not punishable the whole in the hands of the commissio- by information or indictment. If that opiners. The house should not give any ad-nion was called for, and if the majority of ditional validity to the claims, nor make the peers, upon the opinions of the judges itself a court of appeal. If it did, the con- delivered to the above effect, had prosequence would be, to have the table of nounced the acquittal in the late impeachthe house covered with a mass of useless ment, then it was high time that this should papers. be declared to be law, if it was law; or, that, if it was not law, it should be declared that it should become so in future. He regretted that, at this late period of the session, he could not propose, with propriety, to bring in a bill on that subject; but he hoped, Mr. Grant said, there could be no un- that early next session this would be done. certainty in the business of the commissio-As to the act of the 25th of the king, it did ners; who were all men of high character and honour, and were bound to decide upon oath. This agreement was not of a novel nature, as it was conformable to the practice observed in the whole of the East-spect to its provisions; and that large sums India government.-After a few more observations, Mr. Ryder consented to withdraw his amendment. Mr. Sheridan again observed, that if the house directed the commissioners to report the grounds on which they decided, it must be either for the purpose of revising them, or to gratify an idle curiosity. now appear, from the opinions of the eleven judges, that the public had, from the moment it was passed, up to the present time, been under a most gross delusion, with re of public money, (as had lately happened, to the extent of 150,000l.,) might be drawn from the bank, and deposited in any place Mr. Johnstone moved, as an amendment, whatever, by the treasurer: and that not that none of the commissioners, hereafter to only he, but one deputed by him, might be appointed for investigating these claims, thus dispose of money, and lodge it in should be members of that house; but, that any place, even beyond the controul of this exemption should not extend to those the treasurer. He found not only that the who had been already appointed; which, assigned balances might be disposed of in after some observations, was withdrawn, this manner; but, also, when another oband the bill read a third time and passed.ject was in view, and when it appeared that [TREASURERSHIP OF THE NAVY.] Mr. the motive of the treasurer of the navy, or Whitbread rose, pursuant to the notice his deputy, was to make use of the public which he had given on a former occasion, money for their own profit and advantage, not with a view, in the present state of the we still found, from these decisions, that such house, and at this late period of the ses- practices were not cognizable by law, and sion, to move for leave to bring in a bill for that the parties were punishable on inthe better regulation of the treasurership of formation or indictment. He wished that the navy; but for the purpose of moving, he could, even in this session, have brought that, early in the next session, the house forward a bill for the regulation of the office should take into consideration the act of of treasurer of the navy, and the greater sethe 25th of the king, intitled, "An Act curity of the public. As that, however, could for the better regulation of the office of not conveniently be done, he trusted, that Treasurer of the Navy." Every member early next session his right hon. friend near who now heard him, he apprehended, had him (Mr. Sheridan) would introduce such read, with attention, the report made by a bill; or, if he did not, he himself would the committee appointed to examine the do it; and he sincerely hoped, that his right journals of the house of lords, relative to hon. friend would succeed better in a mea 1 themselves as having nothing to do with, The gentlemen on the other side, therefore, seemed to have misconceived them, and to blend the liberty of taking out the money, with the emoluments made by Trotter. The sure for the regulation of his own office, observed, that he was perfectly aware of than his noble predecessor had done. The that; but then that was no embezzlement. great difficulty he should feel, he protested, The opinion only went so far as to say, would be, to find words more strong than that a temporary use of the public money, those which had been employed in the act by individuals in office, was not an offence of the 25th. He hoped, however, that his cognizable by law; and every one knew, right hon. friend would make the words so who was at all acquainted with the course strong and clear, the sense so conspicuous of business for these last thirty years, that and defined, and the enactment so plain this had never been considered as a public and obvious, that it would be impossible offence. Where was the difference between that the provisions of his bill could be mis- the case of the late lord Holland and such conceived, or mistaken. He concluded by individuals? The hon. gent. had said, that moving," that this house will, early in the the judges had given it as their opinion, next session, take into consideration the that money might, by law, be drawn from act of the 25th Geo. III. ch. 31, relative the bank, and deposited elsewhere, for pri to the regulation of the office of treasurer vate purposes. They had said no such thing; of the navy." On the suggestion of the they had only said, that it was not illegal speaker, he also moved, that the reprot of to draw money from the bank bona fide the committee appointed to inspect the for naval service. Whether afterwards the lords' journals should be entered as read. trust should be abused, was a quite diffeMr. Leicester rose, not with any inten-rent thing, and one which they considered tion to object to the motion of the hon. gent.; but, because some things which he said appeared to him so extraordinary that he could not pass them over without observation. He seemed to have supposed, that the learned judges had determined, Mr. Whitbread hoped, that he should be that embezzling the public money was no indulged with the liberty of saying a few offence cognizable by law. The judges had words in reply. He had never mentioned determined no such thing.-[Here Mr. the word "embezzlement" at all. Whitbread, by permission of the house, learned gentleman meant, he supposed, by rose, and read the following extract from embezzling, the making use of the public the journals of the lords: "Whether it was money, and not bringing it forward at the lawful for the treasurer of the navy, before making up of the accounts. He did not the passing of the act of 25 Geo. III. c. 31, say any thing about that; nor had he any (and more especially when, by warrant from such thing in contemplation. What he his majesty, his salary, as such treasurer, meant was, the applying of the public mo as aforesaid, was augmented, in full satis-ney to private purposes for a time; and this, faction for all wages, fees, and other profits he and his friends had contended, was an and emoluments,) to apply any sum of mo- offence punishable at common law. As to ney imprested to him for navy services, the construction of the act of the 25th of to any other use whatsoever, public or the king, if the treasurer, or his deputy, private, without express authority for so might take out the money from the bank doing; and whether such application, by for naval purposes, and afterwards apply it such treasurer, would have been a mis- to purposes of private emolument, then, he demeanour, or punishable by information repeated, that the public had, up to this or indictment ?" The lord chief justice of time, been labouring under a most gross the court of common pleas delivered the delusion; for it was utterly impossible to unanimous opinion of the judges upon the suppose, that the legislature had any other said question: "That it was not lawful for intention than, that the money drawn from the treasurer of the navy, before the 25 the bank should be immediately applied Geo. III. c. 31, although after the warrant to naval purposes, and to no other whatstated in the question, to apply any sum of ever. He again repeated, that his great ' money imprested to him for navy services, difficulty would be, to find words more to other uses, public or private, without express authority for so doing, so as to constitute a misdemeanour punishable by information or indictment;" and gave his reasons.] Mr. Leicester, in continuation, binding upon the treasurer, not te draw out the money for any other than aval purposes, and not to apply it to any ther purpose when drawn. It was, that we blended the liberty allowed, with the use made of the money by Trotter. We did nor any other person, should take naval money from the bank, unless it should be at the moment wanted for bona fide naval purposes. Indeed, according to the present arrangement, his pay-master had no concern with a single guinea of the public money; and it was somewhat curious, that this was the arrangement which Trotter sugAccounts are now opened at the bank in the name of each of the subaccountants to which money was occasionally transferred by order of the pay-master. Such was his impression as to the nature of this plan, that he had recommended it to his hon. friend, and others, to introduce a bill at once to render it the law in future; but they, not conceiving several other provisions necessary to the safe custody of the public money, thought proper rather to postpone bringing forward any bill until next session. The pay-master, however, had now no connection with any of the public money; and he would hold him inimical, if he should attempt to draw a guinea from the bank for any purpose whatever. Such was the practice which the right hon. gent. declared his intention to maintain, while he had the honour to hold the office of treasurer of the navy, at least, until it was otherwise enacted by law. Mr. R. Dundas admitted that, according to the opinions of most persons, some new regulations were necessary, with regard to the law upon this subject. But, that the purpose for which he now rose was, to advert to something which had fallen from the hon. mover. That hon. gent, professed to think, that the house of lords grounded its judgment upon that opinion of the judges to which he appeared to object. But, he could not allow, that that hon. gent. or any other person, was competent to say, upon what the lords were induced to decide in the case alluded to; neither was the hon. gent. correct, in stating that that house should infer, from the admissions of lord Melville, that the noble lord connived at Mr. Trotter's application of the public money to his own profit. Mr. Perceval threw out, for the consideration of gentlemen who proposed to bring in a bill upon this subject, whether, if the arrangement were enacted, such as the right hon. gent. had just described, the subaccountants might not be open to the same objections which were applied to the paymaster; that is, whether those sub-accountants might not be open to a similar abuse of the public money. Mr. Whitbread thought such a conse quence improbable. It was to be recollected, that the sub-accountants, on the trial, refused to withdraw the public money from the bank at the particular instance of Trotter; and by no means in consequence of their own wish, for it appeared that inconveniences resulted to them from the transfer. Mr. Sheridan thought that, after the opi- Mr. Sheridan could not admit that the nion of the judges, it was absolutely neces-case, with regard to the sub-accountants, sary that the law, upon this subject, should be satisfactorily settled. But, notwithstanding these opinions, he should take care that, while he remained in his present office, the affairs of it should not be managed, in any respect, contrary to what the law prescribed; and his conception of that law was this, beyond all doubt, that neither pay-master, could ever be subject to the same objections as those which applied to the paymaster. It was obvious, that they could not be so to the same extent. Indeed, he thought it quite practicable so to watch the sub-accountants; so to establish a check between the bank directors and the navy pay-office, as to detect any drawing of mo ney not necessary for, and immediately applied to, a naval purpose; and, should such a thing appear, on the part of any subaccountant, he had no hesitation in saying, that he should feel it his duty, on the instant, to dismiss him. have enabled them to judge, and to have nformed the house, whether this increase was actually necessary. As it now stood, he must object to the bill. Mr. IV. Smith expressed his confidence, that his noble friend would not need the Mr. Fuller, adverting to a notice of a lecture on economy that had been just read motion which he had given, relative to the to him. He could not avoid coinciding in expenses incurred by lord Melville during some of the opinions of the hon. gent. who his late trial, stated, that in consequence of had just sat down. He praised highly the the declaration of the noble lord's son, that, conduct of the duke of York, in declining as no delay had occurred in preparing for to apply for any additional provision. Were the trial, or, in its subsequent conduct, no the depreciation of money, and the increased more expense had occurred to the noble prices of every article of life, alone to be conlord, than if the trial had taken place in the sidered, he was willing to admit, that the chamber of parliament, he was induced to claim preferred was a just one. But there wave his intended motion. were other circumstances, which, in his opi[ROYAL FAMILY ANNUITIES BILL.]nion, ought to be attended to. It ought to Lord H. Petty moved the 2d reading of be recollected, that several of the younger this bill. branches of the royal family enjoyed emoluColonel Wood said, he felt it his duty to ments, independent of their parliamentary object to it. He then repeated the argu-provision. It was with a view to ascertain ments he had used against it, a few nights those emoluments, that he had made his ago; and thought this an unnecessary ex-motion the other evening; and really, unpenditure of the public money. The noble til the papers, for which he had then moved, lord, in bringing forward the measure, had were on the table, he did not see how the stated, as one of his chief reasons for doing house could, with propriety, pass the bill so, the great increase which had taken place before them. It had been well observed in all the necessaries of life, since these pro- by lord Bacon, that in some situations, vovisions were originally made. He allowed luntary poverty was a debt that a man owed this to be the case; but these royal person- to his country. Far was he from wishing, ages only felt the pressure in common with that the illustrious personages in question others; and that pressure was most severe should be plunged, or allowed to remain, on the great mass of the people, who were in poverty. He was solicitous, that they nearly borne down by taxes. He said he should not be deprived of the due apverily believed that, if he were to ask M. pendages of their rank; but it became Talleyrand, the prime minister of Buona-a question, whether, or not, the measure parte, what mode he thought would be best proposed was calculated to increase the to be pursued, in order to throw this coun-respect that it was so desirable to secure try into the grasp and dominion of his mas- to them? proposed to the allowances of the younger branches of the royal family was very reasonable, and much less than was barely necessary to meet the depreciation of money since those allowances were fixed. ter, he would say, it was to make the people Mr. Rose thought the increase that was dissatisfied with their government; make them dissatisfied with their taxes, and the people would be ready to throw themselves into the arms of Buonaparte. Those noble dukes held many places and emoluments, besides their original establishments of Lord H. Petty thought, that the only 12,000l. a year; and to make this addition question was, whether, when the salaries to the public burthens, would, he thought, of every subordinate person in the state be one of the surest methods of making the had been, within a few years, so much inpeople dissatisfied; and that at a moment creased, it was wise to exclude, from the when he would advise the noble lord to ex-benefit of that general augmentation, a ert his every faculty and ability to make re-class of persons whose splendour and digtrenchments, rather than add to the public burthens. He thought this measure ought to have been introduced by the noble lord before a secret or select committee, rather than by this mode; and that committee might have made enquiries, which would nity were so intimately connected with those of the nation. Alluding to the duke of York, he described his situation as very different from that of his royal brothers. The income of his royal highness, independent of his emoluments as commander |