was not merely at the exigency of the mo-ing the provisions of the bill into execument that he looked to the bill for aid to tion; an expence for which he had not the the country, but he considered it as a least dobut that 400,000 volunteers might means of inspiring a military character into be provided, properly armed, accoutred, a large mass of the population of the coun- clothed, and officered; a force which, it try, and thus, in the midst of our com- was needless to say, would be of a much merce and our wealth, giving us also mili- superior description to that which would tary strength, and enabling us to enter, arise out of the present bill. There was, fully prepared, into any future war, with besides, another objection to the present the means of sending out of the country a measure, arising out of a bill of a similar large disposable force. He concluded by nature, brought forward at the commencemoving, that the house should resolve it-ment of the war; in which it was provided, self into a committee on the bill. that if a number of volunteers came for

ing that, a new bill was brought in, to carry into execution a compulsory mode of training, and thus to substitute a force which was not known, nor ever had existed in the country, for one which had been already tried and found efficient. He was thoroughly convinced that nothing had tended in a greater degree to silence the boastings of the enemy, and shew him the futility of his schemes against this country, than that zeal and patriotism which had been so eminently evinced by the volunteers; and he appealed upon this subject to a noble lord (Moira) on the other side of the house, who, when commanding in Scotland, spoke in the highest terms of the quality and efficiency of that description of force. If, then, as he contended, the volunteers were an efficient force, where was the necessity of resorting to a measure for training a large portion of the population of the country to arms? The volunteers were, in fact, the trained population of the country, and trained in a manner greatly superior to the

Lord Melville said, it was not his wish ward, equal to six times the number of the to oppose any measure which his majesty's militia, the compulsory provision of trainministers considered necessary for the de-ing should not be resorted to. Considerafence of the country, but he must beg bly more than that number of volunteers leave to express his doubts as to the pro- did come forward, and now, notwithstandpriety or utility of the present bill. In considering this measure, he naturally looked to the present state of the military force of the country; and when he found that we had at present a volunteer force of from 3 to 400,000 men, in addition to the regular army and militia, he was induced to ask, where was the necessity of this measure? We had already a large force of a much superior description to any that this bill could give; a force which had arisen out of the voluntary spirit, the zeal and the ardour of the country; a force, in contemplating which, every man might sleep sound in his bed, and consider the country secure. Why then resort to compulsory means, when we had already a sufficient force, and when the country was already secure? To resort now to such a bill as the present, would tend to dishearten and discourage that voluntary force, to whom the country were so much indebted, by telling them that they were of little use; that, notwithstanding all their zeal and ardour, it was still necessary to resort to compul-training which would be carried into effect sory means to ensure the security of the country. He did not mean to insinuate that noble lords on the other side had any wish or intention to discourage the volunteers; but declarations had been made, which had gone forth to the country, and which certainly tended to damp the ardour and the spirit of those who had so loyally and so patriotically stepped forward in the hour of danger, to take up arms in defence. of the country. How was such a force as the present to be properly disciplined? How was it to be officered? No means were pointed out by which such a force was to be rendered really efficient. A great expence would be incurred in carry

under this bill. He agreed in the policy of training young men to arms, and making it a part of their education; but he thought it would be much better to give up the present bill, which could not, at any rate, be carried into effect for some time to come, and next session a bill might be brought in with provisions more adequate to the intended object.

The Earl of Moira said, the noble viscount agreed in the necessity of having a large efficient force under the present circum stances of the country; the only difference of opinion between them was as to the quality of that force. He had been appealed to by the noble viscount with respect to what

the exigency of the moment might require it, but merely to train them to the use of arms, that, in the case of emergency, they might be employed with effect against an enemy, and in aid of the volunteers. He considered the bill to be well calculated for the purposes which he had mentioned, and its provisions to be well adapted to secure the objects intended to be effected.

was formerly uttered by him, as to the them to land in this country, he would lead efficiency of the volunteer force of Scot. on a volunteer army against them with the land, and to that opinion he still adhered. utmost confidence. It would be wise poAt the time he commanded in Scotland, he licy, in such a situation, not to risk a batnot only undertook the defence of that tle without absolute necessity; but, in the country, but also of the northern parts of mean time, the peasantry trained under England; and had so high an opinion of this bill might be most advantageously emthe volunteer force, that he would have led ployed in firing from behind hedges and them on with the utmost confidence against banks upon the columns of the enemy: an invading enemy. It was in that confi-who, unable to send out detachments, and tence in the volunteers that he parted with perpetually harassed by this mode of atthe regular troops under his command, tack, would ultimately be overwhelmed who were thereby rendered disposable for and completely defeated. He could not the service of the country in other quar-conceive by what mode of calculation the ters. This was not an overweening confi-noble viscount bad discovered that 200,000 dence, but a confidence founded upon an volunteers could be raised for the same experience of the efficiency of the volun- expence as would be incurred under the teer force, a confidence which he still present bill. How those 200,000 volunmaintained; nor would he hesitate to lead teers were to be raised, it was beyond his on such a force against any veteran army comprehension to discover. As to the obof France which could effect a landing here.jection, that there was no provision for The noble viscount had contended that our officering the men trained under this bill, present force was sufficient for our de- it was not intended to officer them until fence: this argument might be good, if we could know at what point an enemy might attempt to effect a landing, or that he would only make the attempt at one point; but with our vast extent of coast, this was absolutely impossible, and therefore it became necessary to have a large efficient force in the country, ready for the exigency of the moment. He admitted, that the volunteers were of a much superior de- The Earl of Westmoreland contended, scription of force to the force which could that the bill imposed a heavy burthen upon be procured under the present bill; but it the country, without the probability of dewas not intended, as the noble viscount had riving from it any adequate advantage. said, to substitute this force for the volun- There were, he believed, 15,000 parishes; teers, but to bring it in aid of them. The and how were the men in these different noble viscount had talked of expressions parishes to be trained? how many serjeants which had been used, tending to discou-and constables must there be? how many rage and dishearten the volunteers; but drums and fifes? what was to be done with be disclaimed any such intention in any of his colleagues in office, and maintained that what had been alluded to had been invidiously represented. Our present force, it was said, was sufficient for the defence of the country; but were they to look only to the defence of our coast, without considering the modes adopted by the enemy, of attacking the resources of our commerce and our prosperity in other quarters? No: he looked forward to a period when, if the war continued, we might, by means of our volunteer force, and the force raised under this bill at home, be enabled to send every battalion of regular troops out of the country, to combat the enemy in those quarters where they were attacking our resources and our interests. Were an enemy

the arms? were the serjeants to travel in post-chaises or balloons? There appeared to him to be no adequate provision for car. rying the object of the bill into effect. The bill, besides, threw a slur upon the volunteers, by declaring that their services were inadequate. It had been said, that opinions given respecting the volunteers had been misrepresented; but was it meant to be stated, that all the newspapers, and all the short-hand writers, had been bribed to circulate a misrepresentation through the country? Were not other measures, not favourable to the volunteers, suggested by his majesty's servants, through the mouth of his majesty?

Lord Grenville spoke to order. The noble lord was, he conceived, irregular,

in discussing opinions uttered in another merits of the military measures brought forplace, and certainly in mentioning his ma-ward by the noble viscount who spoke last. jesty in the way he had just done.

The Earl of Westmoreland said, if the expression he had used was improper, he would say, measures that had been announced by his majesty through the mouths of his servants.

Lord Grenville again spoke to order, declaring it disorderly for any noble person to say, that his majesty spoke through the mouth of any member of parliament.

The measures of the ministry who succeeded the noble viscount, at the head of whom was that great man whose loss was now so justly deplored, he was also convinced, were the best which could be resorted to, in the situation in which the country was placed. These measures had also been approved of by the noble viscount; and he (lord Eldon). was only afraid, the noble viscount was not entirely aware of the nature of the present The Earl of Westmoreland apologised for measures, introduced by those with whom having used the name of his majesty in any he now acted, who had so loudly decried way that was conceived improper; but con- the measures of the noble viscount, and of tended that, in discussing the opinions used his successor, as being totally weak and inin another place, he had only done what efficient. The opinions of the present gohad been done before, in the course of the vernment, as to the volunteer force of the debate. His lordship resumed his argu-country, it was not his wish to judge of from ments against the bill, which, he contended, any representations which had taken place was not calculated to produce any advan-out of the house. He must therefore coltage to the country.

lect it from what he should hear their lordships say in their places that night. He must, however, declare, that, in his opinion, to them this country was not indebted, alone, for safety from a foreign foe; but that, from their being collected together at the period when they were first embodied, was owing the existence, at this moment, of the constitution. The present bill, or any other which could have any tendency to degrade them, or to render their services less beneficial, he could never approve of. He alluded to the promises of ministers, to bring forward a complete military system; not a piece here and a piece there; but contended that, in this, they had completely broken their word; and that, after an interval of some months, first one part of their system, and now, at the distance of another nonth, another part of their system, had been introduced.

Lord Sidmouth defended the bill, which, he contended, was not near so rigorous in its provisions, as the bill of a similar description, brought forward when the noble lord (Westmoreland) and himself were in administration. The object of the bill was, to raise a force which might be rendered essentially useful, either by being incorporated with the regulars or the militia, or, in other modes, in the event of an attempt on the part of the enemy. It had been truly said, by a great and eminent character, that we migh have, in this country, what an enemy could not bring with him-an armed people, whom no enemy could conquer. It was in this view that the bill was essentially important, as contributing materially to that great object. It had been insinuated by the noble viscount (Melville), that this measure was a breach of faith with the people, in as much as, by the last train- Lord Grenville, after the able stateing bill, compulsory measures were not to ments, in support of the measure, made be adopted, if the volunteers, to a certain by his noble friends near him, should not extent, came forward. That bill, however, have thought it necessary to say a word on only authorised his majesty to suspend, in the subject, had it not been for the obserthat event, the operation of the compul-vations of the learned lord who spoke last. sory clauses; but did not, nor could, affect For the right hon. gent., now no more, to his majesty's prerogative to call out the whom the noble and learned lord had alpeople whenever necessary. The present luded, no person could feel more strongly measure was rendered necessary, in order to raise a force sufficient for the purposes for which it was wanted, and which would come in aid of the volunteers.

Lord Eldon declared, that no man more highly approved than he had done, and that none could, at this moment, be more firmly convinced than he was, of the propriety and VOL. VII.

than he did. He had been his dearest friend; and when he had differed from him, it was with sincere regret; but, at the same time, he could not sacrifice to him his judgment, and every idea of propriety. With respect to the opinions of his ma jesty's ministers as to the volunteers, every individual member of administration in this

4 A

house knew, that there was but one opi-think it necessary to have them deposited nion among them. This opinion, he de-in some castie or fortress; but should think, sired, might be collected, not from their that in enabling every man to become hawords, but from their conduct. Had they bituated to the use of arms, and the people not been among the first, not merely to thus to become an armed people, while countenance and encourage, but, them- they in no wise endangered the peace of selves, to take a part in that service; and the country at home, they rendered it incould it be supposed, that they wished to vulnerable against every loreign attack. do any thing which should go to degrade Lord Hawkesbury entered into an invesand insult themselves and their comradestigation of the different measures alluded and companions in arms? For the govern- to by the noble lord; and particularly of ment collectively too, he could declare that, the great advantages of voluntary services, so far from degrading, it was their wish which, he was convinced, would be greatly to honour and protect the volunteers; to affected by the present measure; a measure protect them mor ore particularly against that which, in his opinion, would be equally exfoul insinuation which had been thrown out pensive, and by no means so efficient as the against them, that they had so little patriot-voluntary force. He should not, however, ism, as to be deterred, by misrepresenta-press the matter to a question.

tions and misconceptions, from performing The Earl of Rosslyn shewed, that the their duty to their country. If, however, volunteer service could not at all be afs by saving the country, the noble and learned fected by the present measure; which was . lord meant, that there was any dread that, not a substitute for, but an addition to, the but for their existence, our country was, at volunteer system. He took a view of the present, in danger, from its internal ene-different immunities, such as exemption mies, he could by no means follow him that from ballot for the militia, army of reserve, length. He was convinced, if there were, &c., which had been formerly held out to among ourselves, any enemies to the con-them; and maintained that, instead of be stitution of this country, the occurrences ing degraded, as it had been termed by of the three last years must have been more this bill, it also went to encourage the enthan sufficient to bring them back into the tering into the volunteer corps, by exempt. path of loyalty. His lordship then pro-ing all such from the provisions of the bill. ceeded to shew, that the present was not a He asked, too, if it could be contended, separate measure; but a part of the general that the same number of volunteers would military system, which the present govern-continue having nothing but the August ment had resolved to adopt, and which the establishment, while the contributions were noble and learned lord could hardly have discontinued? Ile adverted to what had expected to see comprehended in one bill. fallen from the learned lord (Eldon) as to First, they had got rid of one measure which the volunteers being the saviours of the was universally acknowledged to be bur-constitution; and trusted it could not even thensome and unjust in itself; which had be insinuated, that such an idea was at all been unproductive, and, at the same time, well founded, in the present state of the operated as a drawback on the ordinary re- country. cruiting. They then proceeded to intro- Lord Eldon, in explanation, declared, duce a limited endurance of service, with that he had never either insinuated or the double view of increasing the number, dreamt of such a thing. He had simply aland of introducing into the army a new or-luded to the volunteers at the time of their der, superior in zeal and energy, as superior formation; and had attributed to them, in knowledge. The volunteer force still ex-he was convinced, correctly, that this isted; and now the present bill was brought country had escaped those destructive and in for the purpose of forming a force in ad-desolating principles, by which the liberties dition to it, by which, in time, the whole of the rest of Europe had been overturned. country should be instructed in the use of -The question was then put, the house He informed the noble earl (West- went into a committee, and the bill was moreland), that it was the intention of the reported. present government to disperse 200,000 stand of arms among the people of the country; so far were they afraid of this, that they even intended to instruct them how to use them. Neither should they BILL.] A Bill was brought in, for vesting,

arms.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, July 11.

[GRENADA AND ST. VINCENT'S LOAN

in certain trustees, the sale of property be-trustees; which was the whole object of longing to the house of M'Dowall and Co. this bill. for the re-payment of advances made to them by government; which being read a first time,

Mr. M'Dowall said, what he had principally to request was, that the house would suspend its judgment till they should be in complete possession of the whole, from documents which he should, at any time, be prepared to lay before them.

Mr. R. Dundas said, he did not mean to oppose the bill, or controvert the greater part of what was said by his hon, friend; but Mr. Baker took a view of the whole of he thought it hard, that the late law officers the transaction, observing that, in conse-of Scotland should be arraigned for their quence of the calamities which occurred in conduct, before the whole of the proceedthe islands of Grenada and St. Vincent's, ings should be before the house. in 1800, an act of parliament was passed, to enable government to make certain advances to the merchants and planters of these islands, on sufficient security being given for the re-payment. Of this inoney, the sum of 240,0007. had been advanced to the gentlemen in question; and yearly applications since made to parliament, to extend the time of the re-payment. It seemed that this money, instead of being employed in the manner proposed, had been laid out for other purposes in Scotland; and he thought, that the outstanding of the debt to this time was highly criminal, in some quarter or other.

Mr. Johnstone said that, notwithstanding this bill for vesting the sale in trustees, he hoped the present securities for the debt would not be released, on account of any difference of opinion between the late and present law officers of the crown in Scotland.

Mr. Francis said, he objected to the principle of these loans originally; and the present bill was a proof, that such advances of money to individuals were not within the proper functions of the government.-The bill was then read a first time.

Mr. McDowall requested the permission of the house to explain, that ever since the year 1800, when this loan was made, he had used every possible exertion to repay this debt to government. He had ample funds, [BILL SENT BY MISTAKE TO THE LORDS.] not only for paying that, but every other Mr. Hobhouse felt himself under the necesdemand upon this firm; but, in all his ef-sity of calling the attention of the house to forts to dispose of the great property he a circumstance which might involve some possessed in Scotland, he was, for some blame to himself; but in which he trusted reason or other, constantly thwarted and to the indulgence of the house. A bill impeded by the first law officers of the (sir J. Gordon's Divorce Bill) had been crown in Scotland, under the late govern-taken from the table of the house, and ment. Even at this moment, he had a carried up to the lords, which had not property of 180,000/. floating in Scotland, passed this house; the lords were unwilwhich, for the reasons already mentioned, ling to part with the bill, without a message he could not avail himself of. He was from the house to recall it; a message, aware that his own honour and character required a full explanation of the whole of these transactions being made to the house and the country; and, however reluctant he might be, on some accounts, to make such a disclosure, he owed it to himself to afford it in a proper stage of the bill. The foundation of the present bill was, to permit him, by his own consent, to dispose, through the medium of trustees, of that property which would enable him to discharge the debts due to the public and the other creditors to his house.

The Attorney-General explained, that when he came into his present official situation, he found this large debt due to government; and, for the better and more speedy recovery of it, he wished to have the sale of the property vested in

therefore, he was under the necessity of moving for. There were precedents of similar mistakes, and similar messages; but he could not call upon the house, without taking some blame to himself for an inadvertency which, he supposed, must have happened to him acting as chairman of the committee of ways and means. He moved, that a message be sent to the lords, desiring that their lordships would send back the said bill.

Mr. Baker was not surprised that such mistakes should occur,when the duty of the chairman of the committee of ways and means was performed by so many persons. He wished to know, who was the real chairman ?

Mr. Hobhouse said, it was well known that the chairman (Mr. Alexander) was much absent, in making preparations for