the law, and have not to charge ourselves with neglect or omission in punishing the untaught and uninstructed, for the commission of crime, without having afforded them the means of acquiring a knowledge of their duties to God and man (loud cheers)."

I have given my opinion, elsewhere, as to the propriety of the clergy coming to the school, at a regular hour, to give religious intruction: Sometimes the children may be in the mood to receive his instruction at that specific time; at other times I have seen them, in the Liverpool Corporation schools, not pay the slightest attention; and it was clearly seen that the labour at these times was completely thrown away.

I have generally found the Unitarians very active in promoting the education of the people: I have had a good deal to do with them in various parts of this country, and I cannot charge my memory with any single school which I ever visited, in which I did not meet the Bible; therefore on this point his lordship must have been misinformed; and I can safely say from my own experience, that many of them are most anxious, that the Bible should be received in the schools and properly taught. I believe that the Roman Catholics are the only body of Christians who would object to the Scriptures being taught in the Schools. In Ireland I know they do object; and I know that their objections are acted upon; and if these objections become general, a system of national education based upon them would, in my opinion, be worthless. It is quite evident that the real state of the schools throughout England, are not very well known. I hardly ever visited a school, in any part of England, where I did not find some children of Dissenters going to the National school; and in very many instances I have found the children of Churchmen going to a British and Foreign School; and I have found the children of Roman Catholics in both; but the greatest number in the British and Foreign Schools; and I am quite sure, and I can speak in the positive degree, that the Dissenters generally are as anxious for Bible teaching as the members of the Established Church; and I should say that the members of the Established Church ought to be satisfied if they get the entire Bible in a system of national education. They did not get this in the Irish system, and hence as a body they did not or could not join in its propagation. Whether this was wise in them is another matter. I can only say that the consequence has been that it has thrown the system completely into the hands of the Roman Catholics; they have it all entirely their own way; and I beg leave to ask, what other results could be ex

pected? A few of the clergy of the Established Church may advocate the principle, that they should have the whole and sole education of the people; but this, in the present state of party feeling, every man, who has moved about the country, must know to be impossible; at the same time I must say, while I see the Roman Catholic clergy managing the system of education in Ireland, it is but fair that the English clergy should be put upon a par with them, and have the chief, if not entire management of a system of education for England.

We see that his lordship admits that religion undoubtedly forms a great part in every sound system of education. Mr. Wyse, Mr. O'Connel, Mr. Shiel, and other Roman Catholic speakers, have admitted, in my hearing, that religious education was essential in a system of education for the people. Why then not admit the Bible? Are we to be told that the rights of conscience will not permit the Bible to be read? No other religious body are afraid of the Bible; and I see no just reason why the Roman Catholics should; and still less do I see, however tolerant I may feel disposed to be, that they can expect the Protestant people to put the Bible from their schools, in order that the scruples of the Roman Catholics may be complied with. In England this will not be done in my day; and I feel as fully assured of this, as I do of my own existence. It is with pain that I am obliged to declare, that I have never yet visited a school, belonging to any sect, where I found genuine unadulterated religious instruction given; I have found plenty of religious talk given to the children, but a very small portion of religious doings. Nothing can be a greater truth, than that the quality and quantity of education throughout the realm, is decidedly defective. No man, let him belong to what party he may, if he is acquainted with the subject, will ever deny it. The Church are now erecting schools from one end of the country to the other: a large Diocesan Normal School is in progress in Chester, from which, no doubt, the greatest good will result; and I believe if there had been as much spirit manifested upon this subject forty years ago as there is at present, the Church would have been much stronger than she is; and hundreds of thousands of persons might have been retained in her communion. There is no denying this, and therefore we must make the best use we can of the subject, and take more care for the future. A liberal Churchman need not be so liberal as to give up the Bible in a school education; but he must be liberal enough to advocate universal education amongst the people, and particularly amongst the poor of his

own body, if he wishes the Church to be powerful, respected, and strong, in the principles of divine truth.

There can be no doubt that the National Society have done a great amount of good. It is one thing however to build schools, and another to have a life-giving education within them. That her Majesty's ministers have taken the additional weight of legislating for the education of the people in detail, in addition to their other important and heavy duties, is an encouraging fact; but whether they will be able deliberately to consider, and systematically arrange, a system of education for the people, remains to be seen. And as to Mr. Wyse's plan of a central Board of Education, it is also beset with difficulties; and one, in my opinion is, that it might become a political engine, and that persons might be put in office merely for their political views; and others be made inspectors for the same reason, though they might be no more fit to inspect and report properly on the state of a school, than they would be to report upon the duties of some of the mandarins in China.

For the present government to claim the right of inspection is perfectly natural, provided the inspectors are practical men, and competent to the duty; if so, no good schoolmaster in the kingdom would object to have his school inspected by such persons: it would encourage him, he would feel delighted with it. But if the inspector was to comie with a high sounding title, and a number of letters attached to his name, such as LL.D. and F. R.S., D.D., B. A., and so on, with a corresponding amount of buckram and pomposity in his behaviour, and probably with all these titles, totally ignorant of the essential qualities necessary in a master, as well as thè necessary facts to be developed in a school, with regard to physical, intellectual, moral, and religious education; then I say, such a man could not do a master justice; he could not report properly, and of course the master would be disgusted, and become miserable in his office. In my opinion it is better that the official servants of the crown should compose the Board for the present, because they are responsible to Parliament for their conduct. But suppose the government change, what are we to do then? The new servants of the crown might have different views, and upset the arrangements made by the old ones. Then we should have new superintendents, new inspectors, new head masters, and all the rest new, and a system of confusion would be the sure consequence throughout all the schools in the country. If there is a Board at all, it must be a permanent one, if it is ultimately to work well; and it must be managed by

paid commissioners, who must devote their entire time to the subject. This Board should fairly represent the Established Church; and the other bodies of Dissenters should be represented in proportion: and I think such a Board might carry out a good system. Whether such a Board could be established, which would have the confidence of the public, I will not undertake to decide; at all events something must be done, to improve the system of the British and Foreign School Society, as well as the system pursued by the National Society, whose plans at present are very defective, especially in moral and physical training.

For the above reasons I should object to a minister of public instruction; it would soon descend to a purely political appointment, and have nothing to do with the education of the people. I would sooner see the power vested in the Archbishop of Canterbury, who would at all events hold it for life, and consequently it would not be so subject to change. Nothing would injure a system of national education more than perpetual change; and I never saw a good school during my entire life, where the master or committee were always changing their plan. It is quite evident that the council of five alluded to by Lord John Russell, must depend for their information upon persons who are employed by them; of their own knowledge, they can know no more than any other Board could, and hence they will be open to imposition in exactly the same manner as I have seen in similar cases. However I am aware it is very easy to object, and as an individual, I feel thankfu! that the subject has been mooted by her Majesty's ministers at all, for in the end, good must be the result.

It is a singular fact that the president of the council was the first and last president that the late Infant School Society ever had. And it is to be hoped, that the Infant System will meet with its due share of attention, for I am sure it will be found inferior to none of the other systems, when its principles are more known and better understood.

With respect to the distribution of any sums of money granted by Parliament, certainly the thing cannot be in better hands; and I hope the schools connected with the Established Church, if there still must be a distinction, will have their fair share of the grant.

A good Normal School is certainly desirable; in this I agree altogether with the noble Lord; but this cannot be originated without the assistance of practical people. I am no advocate for mere boys and girls being sent through the country as school masters and mis

tresses; they cannot have the experience requisite for such a responsible charge; that is one thing very defective in the Irish Board, most of the masters appear to me to be too young, and this difficulty ought to be carefully guarded against in the English plan. A good system of religious, moral, and intellectual education is much wanted; and if you can get the children to be industrious in all these matters it is as much as ought to be expected from young persons under 12 years of age. The English people are naturally industrious; when you see lights in the various factories as early as 5 o'clock in the morning, and sometimes as late as 9 in the evening, I think a want of industry amongst the people cannot well be argued for as existing. My opinion is, that the industrial system is already pushed too far: we already find old heads upon young shoulders, and the consequence is, that the working population are already becoming degenerate in mental and physical capacity; this may be proved by a visit to any large school in the manufacturing districts. The children are by no means equal in capacity, to the Irish children, who do not work so hard. This is a subject well worthy of consideration. If we can train the pupils properly on the forementioned subjects, we should leave the teaching of trades to the apprenticeship system; for the master will teach his apprentice his trade much better than the school master can, and if we put too much on the school master, nothing will be taught well, for it is highly irrational to suppose that a boy can be taught every thing necessary at school. This is not the case in our higher schools, and ought not to be expected in our schools of a lower grade.

Lord John Russell seems to think, that a good Normal School, can be carried on at an expense of 400l. to 500l. a year; surely this must be a misprint; I should imagine it must have meant 40007. or 5000l. a year; for the superintendent of such an establishment ought to have, at least, 500l. a year; and I am sure, if there is a niggardly plan adopted with regard to the salaries of the principal teachers, a good Normal School cannot be established. Many respectable shopkeepers will realize greater profits than that during the year; and if inen of talent are to be invited to turn their attention to national education, suitable encouragement should be held out to them, otherwise they had better turn their energies and talents to trade, where they will be more likely to meet with suitable returns.

That it is our duty as a christiau people, to prepare the population for obedience to the laws, is self evident; and it certainly is the height